271 Replies to “An encounter with an Amway / WWDB recruiter”

1. I really appreciate this article. My son was targeted by an Amway recruiter not too long ago. This man had gotten himself into a job fair that helps soldiers find employment when they leave the service. He was able to get my son to meet with him several times telling him only that he was a very successful IBO and was looking for new talented people to mentor. He came home very excited to tell us all about it, but the family was very suspicious of it. His father hit it on the head and suspected an Amway recruiter right away. I on the other hand had not had experience with that sort of thing so I had no idea. Later I did a search and sure enough this man’s picture turned up on an Amway site. I was infuriated so much so I emailed this person and upset my son. I’m sure many people make it in Amway for a little supplemental income, but there is no doubt that the people on the top make their money by selling the training supplies and I’m fully aware of how difficult it is to sell their products. I was deeply offended that he was able to make his way onto the base to target these young and impressionable people who have so much to offer the world and have sacrificed so much. I’m sure he wasn’t a bad man and I should have trusted my son’s judgement in allowing him to figure out on his own whether or not it was a business for him or not, but I do have one question! If Amway is such a good business to get involved with, why do they make such an effort to conceal it when they are trying to recruit people. It just all seems so shady! There is a website you can go to for Amway to get started, so if they are so great why do they have to be so shady or secretive?

   Reply

   1. Hi MBlake,

      I appreciate your comments.

      Amway recruiters do not seem to be honest or straightforward based on my experience. Starbucks coffeeshops are infested by such individuals.

      I once met a 19 years old lady that seemed “smart” and “friendly” only shortly to realize she’s a recruiter. She never admitted it, but she got angry when I spoke the truth about Amway. Her upline (or sponsor) must have told her to stop talking to me (because I am a dream killer).

      They are secretive because if they were straightforward then I doubt someone will even listen to them. Their basic tactic is: bait and switch. They want to build the victim’s hope so high that he/she looses their senses and get excited by those greedy / unrealistic dreams.

      It is like a cult. They isolate you from friends or family, citing that they are negative influence. A common joke about those Amway people is that they join the NFL club (No Friends Left).

      Sad state of affairs, they are what they are. Spread the word. I wrote this article here to help identify those people: http://lallouslab.net/2015/03/25/7-tips-to-help-you-spot-amway-wwdb-recruiters-in-coffeeshops/

      Let me know if you have other questions.

      Reply

      1. They are forced to use the bait and switch method. If they are straightforward, no one would sit down with them to see the Amway plan. They use manipulation and deception to waste people’s time.

      2. Emily, true. As I wrote in my experience, only after the fifth encounter they told me what it is all about and I decided not to continue. Had they told me earlier…you know, you said it yourself.

      3. I think my friend is getting duped by a recruiter now. She is very, very convincing and sides with our hesitancy, since she too experienced it initially. She asked us 5 questions to vet us out and then gave us Robert Kiyosaki’s book “The business of the 21st Century”. She saids we need to have the right mindset before meeting her mentor who is some altruistic millionaire. It reeks of stench to me.

      4. Thank you for posting this article. I have an important question/statement.

         So, right now I am in the middle of talks with launching with WWDB at Amway. I’m coming to almost all of the board plans and listening to a lot of audios. My recruiters are a couple that are really nice. They seem like genuinely good people. They worked a budget with us when they didn’t really have to and are so positive and uplifting. Here’s my problem. I’ve been in talks with them for months, just trying to get my finances in order as we are in debt and now it almost feels like they are tired of waiting for me to launch and uplines are calling me and basically bullying me into launching by a certain time. I just had a child and things are busy on my end. Do they understand? No. They just give me the guilt trip of “if you really want this you will figure it out” and to a degree I agree with that. But I’m not looking forward to buying into this thing and going backwards in my finances.

         I feel like my wife and I are doing the right thing right now. We have been paying off some credit cards, knocking out some debt, and doing it without Amway/WWDB. My huge dilemma is now I feel like I’m in between a rock and a hard place with these people because they’ve spent all this time working with us and have been very helpful but I don’t think this business is a very good fit for us at this point in time. If I had a bunch of money to just play around with and it didn’t seem like I was selling my soul then it would be a no-brained to launch. Any advice would be appreciated. Thank you for reading this.

      5. Jason, don’t feel guilty. Just quit it and focus on your family and finances. Getting another job will be better in the short term. In the long term avoid Amway at all cost. This is my opinion.

      6. Thank you for getting back to me!

         Something I have noticed about all of this Amway business jargon is the religious stuff. All the audios of people thanking god for this and that. Blessing is another word often used, both in the meetings and on the tapes. This isn’t coincidence, is it? What is it about Amway that attracts the religious types?

         Another thing- my wife’s parents did the Amway thing and so did their parents. They didn’t make any real profit off of it and the business consumed their lives. Always going to another city, showing the plan to this couple or that person. Going to “dream nights” and other big events. The recruiters make it sound easy but I know it’s not. I feel like you pretty much have to say goodbye to all of your time with family and friends just to try to make this thing work.

      7. The religion jargon wards off any gut feeling you may have against their business and mentorship. You would trust them easily.

         Don’t look back. You are not missing anything. Check the link in this article or my other article that shows what this business really is.

      8. Your article really spoke to me because all of your encounters with the recruiters was literally exactly like my encounters. From meeting at Starbucks to the handing off of the book and everything thereafter.

         Can I give you an example of how numb these people can be? The day after my wife gave birth to my son (which was recently by the way), I was told I had to get to this particular board plan meeting because this head hancho was going to be there and basically hyped it up to me like it was a once in a lifetime deal. Being the very excited and loyal little soldier that I thought I was, I went. After the meeting, they mentioned he would be right back in town in 3 weeks.

         Now, normal people would have said “you go have time with your family. Don’t worry, he will be back in a few weeks. You can catch him then.” But no, it was all about keeping me interested, keeping me hopeful, keeping me loyal. And like a fool, I actually fell for it. I now realize they don’t care about me or my situation. It’s all about how we can keep this guy coming back. “By any means necessary” mentality.

      9. Jason, thanks for sharing your frustration. Just relax and let it go. Move on. They are what they are. To put your mind at ease and ensure you that you are not losing anything by forgetting about them, then read this: http://www.finance-guy.net/streetonomic/money-with-amway . Also there are many links in my blog post at the end.

      10. Thank you. The articles are great. I broke it off with them and it seemed to go well with the recruiter. With the up-line, not so much. I was told by the upline to “be very careful where I take my input” and that almost sounded like a threat to me. It sounded like “don’t go telling people negative things about this business.”

          It’s not negativity. It’s my experience I’ve had with them. Some of it was good. Some of it really rubbed me the wrong way. Overall, with a response such as the one he gave me, it just makes it that much easier to walk away. Why such a shady response from the up-line?

      11. lallouslab, You’ve complained extensively about how you “wasted time” learning about the Amway opportunity. How much time have you wasted posting negative articles and personally responding to comments from people who, in many cases, are happily involved with Amway. Even though it may not be right fit for you, why expend so much much time and energy discouraging others who it is a better fit for? Let it go!

      12. Hey there.

          I am not the problem here. If it so happens that when you Google and land on my page perhaps as the first result, why not take a look at the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and all the other search results talking the same things about the recruiting tactics by those affiliated with Amway.

          Please you and your likes leave me alone and I reiterate: I am not a problem.

          Go ask all others who wrote similar articles to also remove their articles. My article was not disrespectful but simply factual, so please respect my freedom of speech right.

          Don’t give any more negative image for what you represent by keeping to harass me now and then.

          Thanks for your understanding.

      13. lallouslab, Amway is a multi billion dollar company with literally millions of people involved with their business. Are you so ignorant to believe ALL Amway business owners are dishonest or straightforward? You are painting ALL Amway business owners as bad because of your limited experience with the company. It’s obvious you’re going to great lengths to scour for any negative information you can find about the company and then make it seem that the company as a whole is that way. What you fail to realize is the business owners who have worked hard to build an ethical and profitable business are the ones being hurt most by your negative comments. The ones who have a bad approach would fail long term anyway!

          My best suggestion to you would be to get a life beyond tearing good people who want to make an honest living down!

      14. I have no issues with Amway right? I don’t care how much money they make. This article is about the recruiters and their shady practices. I have discussed that in other comments and the article itself. I am not repeating myself.

          As I said, I am not the problem, just google two simple words: “Amway recruiter” and voila…you have plenty of articles there.

          Don’t comment anymore because I will delete your comments.

      15. I am glad to respect your freedom of speech. Will you respect mine or will you simply delete my comment because it differs from yours?

          I hope you are honest enough to allow people who have different experiences than yours to share their view points. I have been a satisfied IBO now for about 10 years and simply don’t feel it is fair to lump me in with others who have approached you in a way you felt was unprofessional—my approach would have been different.

          No harassment here—just the facts of the situation.

      16. You have been respectful since the beginning. Please understand that many families have been ruined due to the same tactics and dishonesty I shared in the article. You can see from the comments and your research on the internet. That’s why I made the efforts to write this story. It is for the same reasons all others all over the internet share similar stories and articles.

          Even people from the Carnegie Melon university made lots of efforts to share bad experiences with recruiters and their tactics ( https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Amway/AUS/index.htm )

      17. Their lives were ruined?!? Really? From starting a low cost, refundable Amway business?!? That’s a bit drastic don’t you think??

          I have to say, you’ve spent a considerable amount of time “researching” any negative experiences you can find. I wonder if you’ve spent as much time or would give as much credit to the MILLIONS of people who are quite content being involved with Amway. You suggest just doing a google search to prove you are correct. How do you explain this: The Amway business is a volunteer army-anyone can leave at anytime. If their lives were being “ruined” as you claim, they wouldn’t remain involved!

          The book Business of the 21st Century specifically talks about network marketing which clearly isn’t something you have interested in and you claim to have read that after your first sit down meeting with her! If you have so many other “successful endeavors”, why did you even continue to meet with them 4 more times?!? You could have ended this after your first sit down meeting and saved both you and the person meeting with you’s time! Instead, you wasted both of your time and then complain about it!

          You’ve also suggested “if you are smart about it, you can retire in your early forties if money is invested right”. I know I won’t convince you because your kind is completely closed, but for those reading the comments, how many people do you know personally who have retired in their forties? If someone worked as hard at building an Amway business in their 20s and 30s into their 40s as it would take to save, live conservatively, and properly invest their money, I can assure you they could build a successful Amway business. I’ve been involved with Amway for about 10 years now and can tell you the reason more people aren’t successful with Amway is the same reason more people don’t retire in their 40s-they don’t give it the hard work and dedication into deserves!

          Think for yourself before listening lallous blatantly critical “research”!

      18. Here’s a message about deceptive practices:

          Lallous claims to be for honesty, transparency, and an open forum of ideas, yet continues to delete my posts challenging his view points.

          Lallous can dish it out, but can’t take it!

      19. First things first: This article is here to stay, deal with it.

          Now please stop lying to get me to answer you. I deleted your two duplicate comments and nothing else.

          I told you before I am done arguing with you. There’s no point. You proved that you lack the reading and comprehension skills and are an adept at twisting my words and attributing things I never said.

          You want to argue, I know just the right blog for you: http://marriedtoanambot.blogspot.com/ , that lady running the blog will chew you alive with all the experience she has from arguing people like you.

          Meanwhile, good luck in your endeavor as an IBO. Your opinion(s) is/are well noted. The people researching Amway related IBOs and what not when they come here they will read your thoughts.

          I encourage you to start your own blog and put all the nice things you want to say.

          I hope you get the message and go somewhere else. I have nothing to add.

   2. Amway and worldwide are two different things, they keep it vague because they want to see where someone is, its a two way street and just how you didn’t want your son to waste his time they don’t want to either. i have yet to work or meet a potential employer that just drops all of the details of a position both the good and the bad in the first meeting. Your son sounds like he is smart enough to make his own choices you should have maybe given him the chance to see if it was something he wanted to do. If you are basing your assumption on something off of what everyone else says then you would hate everything ever made and then some. Even if it was something your son didn’t want to do it would have possibly been better for you to give him the option of declining instead of getting in the way because now if that was a once in a life opportunity for your son to have a better quality of life then he will never know. We get so used to the idea of sending our kids to school for years and working for someone for more hours in the day than we are home but we never stop to consider there might be something better, I’m not saying away is that vehicle but I’m saying does it really hurt to explore every option for a better life?

      Reply

      1. Finally someone with some sense

      2. what he is saying is absolutely true i’m and Ibo myself and if they bombarded you with everything at once you for sure wouldn’t want to be apart of it. Another reason they wait to tell everything is they want to know if your willing to put in the effort it takes to achieve great success.

      3. Ive been a freelancer in film & TV for 10 years, I met a guy who called me to a meeting. He knew I was a freelancer & always looking for opportunity. He too gave me the Robert K book, & either refused to answer questions or answered them so broadly I wasn’t sure what to think. 2nd meeting he said amway WWDB etc, when he saw my disinterest he started showing me pictures of some guys Ferrari and then said the same guy “believes that nobody should die without a lake house” … What kind of ass backward values do these people have, finally when I said “how much bro?” he was taken so off guard… He literally wouldn’t take no for answer, instead he said “well what do you mean no I wasn’t even going to offer you anything”
         Emotionally unstable with a dash of creep, wasn’t aware on how many people like this exist until doing some research..
         REAL WORK, takes WORK. you don’t pay a monthly fee and start buying broke ass shampoo and energy drinks “from yourself” and call yourself a business. Zero innovation, zero creativity and Zero ambition but they protect themselves by saying that the ones that call them out “are not ready for this kind of opportunity” or really say anything to make themselves feel better about being a broke idiot.

      4. Thanks @Swift_Steel, this is exactly what I am talking about in this article. All I get is Amway defenders calling me names for showing how obscure they are in their recruitment methods.

      5. Ya gotta cut some of these people a bit of slack… Most of them are just,starting,and they are nervous,and have a,difficult time answering questions. We don’t tell people up because of all the hater. and bashers on the web. The system works if you work it. You can’t deny the results. Like any job, ya gotta, learn how to do your job. So you suck in the beginning.
         As for the bashing of the system… Hmm, 60 years in business, 11.3 billion in sales billions paid back to business owners and contracts with 80+ major fortune 500 companies… What do you know that they and their lawyers don’t know… If it was a scam, do you really think they would partner with them? An intelligent person gets all the information before making a decision. And what are you offering? 40+ hrs/50wks/40yrs? For someone else’s dream… No thanks, I’ll take my chances with this opportunity.
         Chris in AZ

      6. I have heard the same arguments Chris. The story I share is not an encounter with a newbie. It was by a person who made the dream supposedly. Why don’t you tell us about the success you achieved and how long you have been living the Amway dream and when do you expect to buy your house by the lake if you hadn’t already?

      7. Thank you sir.

   3. that’s because anyone can sell Amway but most people don’t have the foundation and tools WWDB provide. The reason he didn’t understand is because he only took what he wanted to take from it and they aren’t luring you into anything. If you don’t have the right mindset they don’t want you in the business you have to be a go giver, leader, and someone who is willing to create great leaders and mentors. Its no scam i’m an Ibo myself they just have something so great to give you have to really want it to get it. Their focus is personal growth becoming a better leader, father, husband and friend everyday. What we have to offer isn’t for everyone.

      Reply

      1. and one more thing Mblake mentorship and the opportunity is earned your not entitled which most people think which is a big problem in society you think everything should be explained and given right then and it shouldn’t you have to earn mentorship, financial freedom and success.

      2. I’ve never met a single successful MLM person who didn’t sell their soul to the scheme, becoming a wriggling mannequin of sorts. And even then, the to-be successes I have seen falter. I’ve met and observed many throughout my years–hundreds, perhaps–and to my knowledge not one of them has made it rich (though a few I know have found a liveable income whilst still putting in an unplesant amout of hours by my standard). I do know, however, many hundreds of people that have become quite wealthy–if not rich–by becoming engineers, physicians, registered nurses, pilots and military officers who saved and invested their earnings wisely and lived within their means. One nurse I know worked hard for about 15 years, buying several houses and duplexes along the way and is now retired in his early 40s with a handsome real estate income. A former mechanical engineer I know is now a millionaire after starting a successful clam and oyster business. And a good friend of mine–a graphic designer–started his own business and does quite well designing showcase booths for large events like the Consumer Electronic Show. (To be fair, I’ve also met many high-earners who also always seem broke).

         The idea of life-long residual income from such delvings in MLM-related matters is far-fetched for the vast majority of participants; simple economics prohibits the ascent of perhaps 95% of MLM members in the same way that 99.999% of businessess don’t become the next Microsoft or Amazon.com. The difference being that real business income is yours to keep or reinvest, sans any debt and taxes owed. To be clear, the cashflow in MLM schemes very aggressively funnels upward to the already-established 5%-ers and even more so to the 1%-ers and are not as subject to broader market fluctuations–it’s a microeconomic silo bordering on predatory activities. That being said (and I’ve said it elsewhere in this forum), you’re far more likely to find success by learning a valuable skill and working hard, buying tangible assets such as real estate and/or providing valuable products and services with a real demand over time.

      3. Hi, Wyatt i would like to contact you. Is that possible?

   4. MBlake
      I my opinion, they do not tell you up front because a lot of people have a preconceived idea what it means to work with Amway, and most of The internet naysayers, never had the stones to earn The right to learn the truth. An A+ rating with the BBB, used as the benchmark by the FTC, do these people really believe an 11.8 billion dollar company is running a scam? Why would companies like Barnes & noble, best buy, under armour, lego, etc, why would they parnter with such a horid company?
      When I work with an individual or couple, the business is not the focus. I want to help them become the best them that they can be. I encourage them to read people like Dale Carnegie, Hardy, Keller, Maxwell, to help them learn and apply principles of success. That someone would dedicate hours of their life, “warning” people away from something they honestly have no right to offer an opinion on, is baffling. This is the best opportunity anyone has to create a life beyond being a job slave plain and simple. You,only have one life to live, why waste it working for someone elses dream?
      Good luck, do the research.
      Chris

      Reply

      1. Chris, those big names you mention mean nothing. Working for other people’s dreams you say? Well, in Amway you work for your upline. Be honest about it. If you stop recruiting you die out of hunger. You guys make money by having more people buy into the dream and you get part of the profit. That’s not a very honest model and especially that you guys never say this upfront. The moment you stop recruiting is the moment you have to go back to the dreadful 9-5 job…

      2. @lallouslab, in reading your original post and comments, it’s quite apparent that you are not a neutral party. While your original post seems to put you as “interested and open,” it’s obvious that you are not and never have been.

   5. Success Rule: Don’t take career life advice from a blogger you’ve never met!

      Reply

   6. Go ahead and keep your silly, misinformed, and deceptive blog up. Don’t worry about me, my business will continue to grow and make more and more money for me.

      I don’t have to take the time to respond to you. Building an Amway business has been one of the best decisions I’ve made with my life and simply want to offer a contrary viewpoint to your biased view. It’s not really impressive that you can find articles from some of the millions of people who have been involved with Amway over the years. As I stated earlier, if you are looking into the Amway business, take the time to those who have succeeded with their business, not only the failures. Any failure will justify, make excuses, and blame things other than themselves.

      Ask yourself if you really want to take advice from someone who will be in the 8-5 system for the majority of his working life and spends his spare time criticizing those who want to do something better with their life on his blog. Please note that lallous was asked by me to share his credentials for his readers and he conveniently didn’t answer that!

      If you don’t want to respond, DON’T! Like I said earlier, hats off to you! You must take a lot of time responding to every post on your blog. While lallous spends his time being a critic and nothing more, I will continue to work to help more people improve their fanancial position in their life.

      cue: lallous’ scripted, cut and paste response from another critic.

      I’ll be impressed if this post doesn’t get deleted!

      Reply

   7. The first comment on this blog is laughable! It literally is from someone’s overbearing mom afraid to let their adult son make their own informed life decisions. I hope the people reading these comments have enough sense to think for theirselves!

      How embarrassing!

      Reply

   8. I learned from a friend that there are many people who were freed from debt because of what they do, they educate people to be financially free. They change he person that you are…. for the better… they help you build your confidence, they help you save your relationships…. you know, the biggest investment that you are paying off for is yourself. It’s like joining Toastmasters or other clubs but bettet because you can get returns from your investments. If you want to build a business you still need a capital though. I think you should have tried. And have an open mind

      Reply

   9. In all fairness to the Pro-Amway people posting, I’ve seen many of their responses getting deleted. Not Fair! Let people hear both sides!

      Reply

      1. That user obviously intends to cause confusion by assuming another’s nickname – but that is typical of scamway IBOs – they have no problem cheating anybody and everybody and will do so in every area of life.

         For those who don’t know, this forum allows people to use any name they like which allows heckler’s to create confusion by posting things under their opponents names, but you will notice that the avatar is different.

      2. PS, actually, Anon may be a popular enough nickname that this may have been an innocent collision. My apologies if such was the case.

         I have not noticed stuff getting deleted, however. I see all sides here.

      3. Yes you are right. No posts are deleted. Unless they become offensive, then they add no value and I delete them. So far, none of that happened and readers do see both sides of the discussion.

         But it is funny how that pro-Amway guy was trying to be smart.

      4. You are a Pro-Amway person and here you managed to express another lie about “fairness” and “some responses getting deleted”.

         See, I let people like you to comment.

         Lies are not offensive, so you can still do that here.

2. It would seem youve evaluated the opportunity with a lens you have been taught to think with, and that is the specifics are what matters, not so much the results, which have proven to be successful in a significantly shorter time (4-5 years) than the same result achieved by 40-50 year plan in which the results arent as nearly succesful. I imagine you could find some of this proof in the link ‘The truth about Amway’. The logistics behind network marketing model as outlined behind a success guru like Robert Kiyosak is not that hard to understand, and to most who are looking to find better results than what their pursuing in employment, are more likely to follow proven advice than those founded by opinion of someone who hasnt earned their partnership offer.
   If someone told you they retired before they were 30 and have success in all areas of their life, and they werent involved in unethical or immoral practices (which is unlikely considering you probably wouldnt associate with people like that), and were willing to show you, over a period of time, how to attain that, would it really matter what exactly it was? Would you have to love it, at first? If it were something you’d have to do 40-50 years than yeah thats probably smart. Or you could simply do, as the book might indicate, to allow yourself to be coached and developed by that person and the organization around them. I dont think such an opportunity is selfish, in fact quite the opposite. Successful people typically dont write blogs, they’re too busy building their dream, thats why theres typically more negative anti-blogs according to their experience, you can find that of any subject on the wide world web.
   In essence, this blog is not factual, merely opinionated, and if you are evaluating this opportunity, great, but I wouldnt encourage you to evaluate based on opinion.

   Reply

   1. “”significantly shorter time (4-5 years) than the same result achieved by 40-50 year plan in which the results arent as nearly successful””

      How long have you been with them and how close are you do be independent?

      Who said that one has to work 40 to 50 years? If you are smart about it, like most tech engineers, they can retire in their early forties if they invested their money right.

      I don’t believe in easy success or doing things that don’t get along with my passions. So I have to love what I am doing. To me the end goal is not money, is the fulfillment of my life journey and my gifts I share in life.
      You seem, like most Amway people, motivated by money and nothing else.

      My blog is a hobby, I have many other successful endeavor I am pursuing rather trying to please my upline and try to recruit more people.

      This blog post is my story / experience and not an opinion. This is a fact, that’s what happened with me.

      There’s a nice book I would like you and my blog readers read: Amway: The Cult of Free Enterprise => http://amzn.to/1L3lM0r .

      Eagle, come back in 5 years and tell me about your success with Amway…or tell me you awakened from their grip.

      Reply

      1. “I will make efforts to be as objective as I can” lured me into reading your article that was clearly at the end far from objective. Guess everyone knows how to use the bait and switch!

      2. Seriously? It feels you did not like this blog post.

         Let me count how many times they dragged me before telling me what this “business” is all about: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Yes FIVE times, now that’s bait and switch.

         Good for you I did not write a 5 series blog post 😉

      3. lallous, lets just take you at your word here about your recommendations on how to get ahead. You say “I don’t believe in doing things that don’t get along with my passions”. What if that tech engineer isn’t “passionate” about investing? Do you really believe most people who invest are “passionate” about investing? No! Why are you ok with people making sacrifices, risks, and doing something they are not passionate about with investing, but not with Amway?

         You’ve claimed dramatically that people’s lives have been ruined by Amway. Perhaps you should write a blog about how many people’s lives were actually ruined with Investing?!? You and I have both heard stories about people who worked their entire lives, saved, invested into a 401k, and lost everything when the stock market crashed! Investing is a heck of a lot more risky than being involved with Amway!

   2. Your response, Eagle, comes across quite fierce and oppositional in a way that would not be expected for such a mundane topic. A reasonable person of success (or one clearly heading that direction) would have no motive to counter with such bite unless, of course, he or she deep down has grave insecurities about their endeavor. In fact, only those with the most fantastical of wishes seem to defend something so indefensible and against general sense. Certinly a wealthy and or intuitive entrepreneur would not jump to the defense for his or her products and or business tactics in the way you (and other Amway folk) do; he or she would merely allow the products and results speak for themselves. Besides, if your success and happiness depend on a precondition of how well you do in some MLM enterprise, you will indeed never find it. But as for now, it’s clear to most everyone on here reading your comment that you’re ardently defending Amway out of an unconscious anxiety that this is all a farce and that you’re being “played.” Now you just need to realize it. Trust me, you’ll be better for it.

      Reply

      1. If you are percieving my comment as defense with ‘bite’, then that is a valid observation, and your entitled to pointing out how you see it. I felt I was simply pointing out that, which the author has done in other comments, that this blog is an opinion. Hey I’m just giving an opinion myself, and you seem to have taken it as argument. I have no desire to argue, as youve said, the product should be able to sell itself, in which case I re-affirm my claim to evaluate the opportunity based on the people whom are talking to you directly, instead of a bunch of text written by someone you dont know. The decision makes no difference to me, personally, if you take your influence from the internet I wouldnt want to sponsor you either. Your success is completely within your hands, and you’d need to prove you are capable of pursuing your dream of owning your life and living a life of signifance if you were to earn an offer from one such as myself who is not content with mediocrity. As for the author, I wish you prosperity and success in whatever you endeavor to do. 🙂

      2. I admire passive responses like this. I need to learn this way of speaking. Instead of saying “go to hell” this sounds so much better, more intelligent and hopefully the recipient receives it better.

      3. Just to be clear I am Referring to Geodukkah’s response

3. If it was easy, everyone would do it. Think about that for a second.
   Amway is a $12billion company with no shares or debt. This system works, this business works -ONLY if you are willing to hard. Many people choose to give up because they are not willing to work hard enough, especially go out of heir comfort zone.
   WWDB is for individuals who are self-motivated, who want more in life and would rather work for 2-5yrs to achieve financial freedom, rather than working 40-50years and wait until 65 for retirement.
   If retiring at 60-65yrs old, which is changing to 65-70yrs old now in Canada, if that’s your vision for an ideal life, then that’s great but do your research before you have biased opinions about a company that has been successful, debt-free and been around for more than 50 years.
   So, who made this company successful? The 2%-ers that decided to continue on and not give up. The individuals who decided they would rather go out of their comfort zone and do something that can help them become financial free and help others do the same.
   Like I said, if it was easy everyone would do it,we would all millionaires by now.
   The process to recruit individuals for Wwdb/Amway is not based on lies or secrets. If you went up to Steve Jobs when he was alive, and asked him to tell you his secret about how he became so successful, you think he will just reveal all of his business plans to you? No. BUT All successful people say ONE THING – “I had a dream”. believe in your dreams, and work hard for them” -why do they say that? Because they REALLY DID believe in their dreams and they worked their asses off to be successful,they went out of their comfort zones and built their team.
   See the similarities? The recruiting process with WWDB/Amway shows you how to dream, gives you hope and possibly ignites a fire within you that motivates you to be successful, if that doesn’t do it for you then this business is not for you. And you will know it before you spend any money. But WWDB looks for people who have that burning desire. Because once you have that desire, that dream – you will be willing to work hard and do anything to achieve that. That’s why we have 98%-ers vs 2%-ers. People nowadays are so focused on the “what” and “how-to” that they have forgotten to ask themselves the “why”. Once you know your why – working hard, working outside of your comfort zone – it all makes sense.
   And I don’t know about you all, but I would rather follow the steps of a young entrepreneur who retired at the age of 28 and be mentored by them, rather than listening to 58 year old who is still working hard and trading their time for money. I’m sorry, but I’d rather listen to the 28year old.

   As far as the author of this blog goes, I appreciate you keeping it positive and accepting that this business is not for you. However, as I mentioned earlier, the process of recruiting in this business is not based on dishonesty and secretive.
   It’s a process where they want you to be excited to learn more, because I can guarantee you, during that excitement you were truly happy (little skeptical -human nature) to know that there is a possibility out there to fulfil your dreams.
   Not once will they ask you to spend any money, or try selling their products during the whole process. And usually meetings do have many samples, surprised that they did not, especially snacks for guests. You might look at it as having your time wasted with the 5-6sessions you had but we look at it as you invested your time in something that you thought had potential but now you know it’s not for you. It’s like going through training and realizing you don’t like it, so at least you know you don’t like it and it’s something you might never try again.

   As for others, this business is not for everyone, trust me it really isn’t. And I’m not here to preach about WWDB/Amway but basically commenting to get you all thinking and do actual research which involves real successful entrepreneurs, journals and books – not online forums/blogs/opinions.

   I wish everyone here all the success in all areas of your lives

   Reply

   1. Ishrat, I don’t have much to add. Check my reply to Eagle. You guys argue the same way. Typical of Amway people and the same programming they receive.

      Amway is for the 2% as you said because a Multi Level Marketing scheme cannot accommodate 100% otherwise your uplines won’t be paid and the system will fail. You need to keep recruiting new people so you get paid.

      Again, I am curious about you and your financial independence with Amway. How much time have you been with them and how much money you lost so far?

      I would argue that you can get yourself proper education in a field that is in demand (computer science for example) and make yourself 100k+ a year doing a creative job that you like.

      Reply

      1. How many IBOs did you meet/encounter before you made this assumption about us being motivated by just money? (Re. your reply to Eagle). I know you said “most”, which could be true, or not, but how many IBOs did you actually encounter and talk with and find out their values and ask them why they do what they do?

         I would appreciate a proper discussion instead of having you mock and judge me as a “typical amway person” and assume my education background and the money I “lost” in this business. All based on assumptions from my reply? I can argue you asking me about how much money I’ve lost and my status of financial independence with Amway, makes me wonder if money is the motivating factor for you? But I don’t like to think that way because I don’t blame you, you weren’t approached the right way with this business.

         You asked how much I’ve “lost” so far and my financial independence status- We’ve been with Amway for 7 months now and we are making a profit around $400/month, after all the monthly business costs. But yes, you got me, we don’t have the financial independence.. yet. We’ve only been in business for 7 months and a business takes 2-5 years to build, with gains and losses. I’m sure you knew that. Also, I had to pay out of my pocket in the beginning when I started the business, but which business doesn’t have start up costs and monthly costs? I’m sure you knew that as well. I won’t lie, I worked really hard for the extra $400/month, most importantly, I built habits – success habits. Extra $400/month might mean nothing to you though, which is okay. I see it as profit and success so far. And I still managed to keep my friends and family close. I know my priorities because I’m my own boss. I didn’t sign my life away to my amway, wwdb or my upline and blindly follow everything they say.
         Everything I learned from wwdb resources and training, I applied it to my work as well. Now, I get an increased salary and extra $4500+ residual from Amway, by the end of this year. Also, get tax returns from business costs next year. So yes, I have seen success in my personal and business life, we invested our time and dedicated ourselves to learn what this business had to offer. And, my education background is in healthcare informatics, just like IT, healthcare is always in demand, and I absolutely cannot complain about my salary. My husband and I are pretty well settled in our mid 20s. My husband can retire at 42 for his service. So money is not the issue here. Just like you, we have values too. I grew up seeing poverty all around me until I was 11. Helping people is huge for me. With the time commitment I have with my job, I’m unable to do what I really want to do – humanitarian travel – that’s my goal for my early-mid 30s. Don’t get me wrong, I love my job, Amway can’t tell me to hate my job. But my job won’t wait for me, and they sure as hell won’t pay me while I’m gone 3-4 months to help a village out in another country. All I’m trying to do is replace my income with residual income so I can commit my time to humanitarian activities, enough residual to give back and experience life, people, history, cultures and help communities and villages around the world.
         And it sure is a BIG dream. It scares me to dream this big, but it keeps me going at work and most importantly, in this business. And yes, I have been successful in it so far and it really does change lives of many individuals that have the burning desire of financial freedom.

         I’m happy to know that you know your values, you are successful, and I wish the best for you and everyone else here. But be open to the fact that there are genuinely nice people in this business, and work with an honest heart to really help people grow in this business, because this business has potential just like any other business, for you to make it as big as you want, and stop whenever you want. People like us still exist today, and in this business. Although my business approach is different than the IBO that approached you, I don’t just recruit anyone or vulnerable people for my team, I’m building a team of motivated individuals, who are driven and know what they want. Don’t assume Amway/wwdb doesn’t work, it does, and it’s making more money than all of us combined in this blog.

         Lastly, the book you mentioned “Amway: The Cult of free enterprise”, he talks about quixtar/amway back in the days, not about wwbd. And I’m sorry, but I wouldn’t make assumptions from a book written by an author who only wrote one MLM or business related book in his lifetime based on his experience back in the 80s originally published in 85, which means its biased and outdated. He is not a bestseller author for MLMs, or for General Business section.. I really have no reason to read his book/s.

         I enjoyed your blog either way. All the best!

         Ps: Everything we have today in this world in 2016 is because someone had a dream, a vision, and they worked hard and made it reality. Example: this macbook I’m using right now, was someone’s dream, and it sure wasn’t built overnight.

         Let that sink in.
         Oh, by the way, Apple is Amway’s partner store, and I don’t think I have to tell you Apple’s reputation and its worth.

      2. >>How many IBOs did you meet/encounter before you made this assumption about us being motivated by just money? (Re. your reply to Eagle). I know you said “most”, which could be true, or not, but how many IBOs did you actually encounter and talk with and find out their values and ask them why they do what they do?<<

         I met at least 5 of them. All approach using the same way and all wear lurking in Starbucks.

         Apart from meeting a bunch in person I did read **a lot of articles**, testimonies from deceived Amway IBOs and the book I mention at the end of the article.

         >>I would appreciate a proper discussion instead of having you mock and judge me as a “typical amway person” and assume my education background and the money I “lost” in this business. All based on assumptions from my reply? <<

         Yes, I am sorry to have judged you like this. I have a bad experience with Amway people…based on my own encounter with the 5 people who all acted the same with me.
         See this article: http://lallouslab.net/2015/03/25/7-tips-to-help-you-spot-amway-wwdb-recruiters-in-coffeeshops/

         They were not genuine and all they care about is to recruit people so they make more money. Their smile and friendliness is all fake. That’s my experience with 5 different people.

         They seem to get / receive the same training. It is easy to spot natural people from people who are acting.

         >>I can argue you asking me about how much money I’ve lost and my status of financial independence with Amway, makes me wonder if money is the motivating factor for you? But I don’t like to think that way because I don’t blame you, you weren’t approached the right way with this business. <<

         No money is not my motivating factor as I expressed before. My passion comes first. However, all the 5 that approached me don’t listen whether I like what I want to do or not. They always stress “financial independence”. Look at Eagle’s response above: “do you have to love it?”, he asks.

         >>You asked how much I’ve “lost” so far and my financial independence status- We’ve been with Amway for 7 months now and we are making a profit around $400/month, after all the monthly business costs. But yes, you got me, we don’t have the financial independence.. yet. We’ve only been in business for 7 months and a business takes 2-5 years to build, with gains and losses. <<

         Based on my research not many people make it (again, remember an MLM system cannot accomodate everybody) and it demands a lot of efforts that could be spent building a more versatile skill.

         I chose to spend my time learning / sharpening marketable and in-demand skills, etc… I have a good job that pays me well and I believe it will be more rewarding financially than Amway will ever be.

         Remember, a multilevel marketing scheme will not be able to accomodate ad-infinitum…and you will never retire. The wheel will not run itself. You have to keep recruiting.

         Keep in mind that: your upline did not retire. The 28 year old mentor who has inspired you, did not really retire either. They don’t mentor you because they love you. They have to keep recruiting and you were chosen as a recruit. You will do the same and recruit others if you want to keep making money.

         >>I’m sure you knew that. Also, I had to pay out of my pocket in the beginning when I started the business, but which business doesn’t have start up costs and monthly costs? I’m sure you knew that as well. I won’t lie, I worked really hard for the extra $400/month, most importantly, I built habits – success habits. Extra $400/month might mean nothing to you though, which is okay. I see it as profit and success so far. And I still managed to keep my friends and family close. I know my priorities because I’m my own boss. I didn’t sign my life away to my amway, wwdb or my upline and blindly follow everything they say.<<

         Even 1$ extra means a lot to me. It means that I earned something for my efforts. Sure everything requires an initial and continuous money / time investment. Amway and WWDB, based on my research require you to keep buying stuff you don’t need, stuff that are overpriced and they limit your choice by having you buy from your own shop / “business”.

         If you are honest with yourself you will see that you can find cheaper products and you can even save more. Have you heard of the term “spending to save”? That gives you the illusion that you’re making / saving money but in reality you are spending.

         You say you are your own boss? I kind of disagree. As long as you have an upline to report to, share everything with then you are not your own boss. Dare you upset your upline and you are kind of in deep trouble.

         On the other hand, those who create their own products (say a writer), market and distribute them, then that individual is his/her own boss.

         >>Everything I learned from wwdb resources and training, I applied it to my work as well<<

         I know. WWDB has a big library of “tools” that you have to buy. Those who create the tools profit more than the IBOs who sell Amway products.

         There is so much “tools” and motivation CDs you can buy to keep your dream. You don’t need a lot honestly. But again, you have to go to functions, spend money on tools and what not!

         How many self help books you need to read / learn?

         How many “success” Amway stories burned on a CDROM you need to listen to?

         How many functions you need to travel, spending money for hotel/food, in order to keep your dream up?

         Too much efforts for little return.

         Don’t dread a regular job but dread the stuck mentality. I have a regular job but it is something I cherish because it helps me grow, practice my creativity, earn a living and most importantly helps me plan my independence. As an extra effort, I write on the side and sell my books.

         To be realistic, if I plan my finances right, I can chose to retire comfortably in no longer than 10 years.

         >>I get an increased salary and extra $4500+ residual from Amway, by the end of this year. Also, get tax returns from business costs next year. So yes, I have seen success in my personal and business life, we invested our time and dedicated ourselves to learn what this business had to offer. And, my education background is in healthcare informatics, just like IT, healthcare is always in demand, and I absolutely cannot complain about my salary. My husband and I are pretty well settled in our mid 20s. My husband can retire at 42 for his service. So money is not the issue here. Just like you, we have values too. I grew up seeing poverty all around me until I was 11.<<

         You too seem like good people and that’s the reason I have this blog post. Because from my experience and all the research I have done, WWDB / Amway destroys lives / brainwashes people into unrealistic thoughts than it does anything good.

         Again, a regular 9 to 5 job is not something to dread if you think right and plan right. You don’t have to do that all your life. Learn how to draft a plan and get out of it realistically.

         >>Helping people is huge for me. With the time commitment I have with my job, I’m unable to do what I really want to do – humanitarian travel – that’s my goal for my early-mid 30s. Don’t get me wrong, I love my job, Amway can’t tell me to hate my job. But my job won’t wait for me, and they sure as hell won’t pay me while I’m gone 3-4 months to help a village out in another country. All I’m trying to do is replace my income with residual income so I can commit my time to humanitarian activities, enough residual to give back and experience life, people, history, cultures and help communities and villages around the world.<<

         I understand. Helping others is always good. God gave us the gift of life for a reason. First let us help ourselves, be in good terms, then let us look upon others. We are not saviors. Slowly but surely, life will give us a chance to start sharing more with outsiders. If you believe in God then you believe that God is just and that for everything there’s a reason.

         Don’t underestimate how much you can help others but just being the best version of yourself in your daily life, at work and among your friends.

         >>And it sure is a BIG dream. It scares me to dream this big, but it keeps me going at work and most importantly, in this business. And yes, I have been successful in it so far and it really does change lives of many individuals that have the burning desire of financial freedom.<<

         I truly wish you all the luck. I had no intentions to kill any of the Amway recruiter’s dreams or the WWDB mentees dreams. My intentions are just to draw their attention before it is too late.

         >>I’m happy to know that you know your values, you are successful, and I wish the best for you and everyone else here. But be open to the fact that there are genuinely nice people in this business, and work with an honest heart to really help people grow in this business, because this business has potential just like any other business, for you to make it as big as you want, and stop whenever you want. People like us still exist today, and in this business. Although my business approach is different than the IBO that approached you, I don’t just recruit anyone or vulnerable people for my team, I’m building a team of motivated individuals, who are driven and know what they want. Don’t assume Amway/wwdb doesn’t work, it does, and it’s making more money than all of us combined in this blog. <<

         Surely Amway makes money. Its model and money making scheme and the MLM scheme is what irritates me.

         A good product sells itself. You know how many times I have been pressured / pestered by sales people to buy something I don’t need or something overpriced?

         To salesmen: let me make a decision and buy, don’t come knock at my door, ring my phone and keep shaming me until I buy.

         >>Lastly, the book you mentioned “Amway: The Cult of free enterprise”, he talks about quixtar/amway back in the days, not about wwbd. And I’m sorry, but I wouldn’t make assumptions from a book written by an author who only wrote one MLM or business related book in his lifetime based on his experience back in the 80s originally published in 85, which means its biased and outdated. He is not a bestseller author for MLMs, or for General Business section.. I really have no reason to read his book/s.
         I enjoyed your blog either way. All the best!<< The tenants of the book I mentioned still hold mostly true. The company has changed quixstar but a new reincarnation has popped up. Research about those uplines who made it to diamonds and then research how they are doing right now. Read about the Duncans. Look at the functions and the videos: they come to stage to flash their golden watches, their fancy cars and cloth. This is dreadful. There is no humility in that. They come to stage to motivate you? Why don't they come humble? I am talking to people who are enticed by shiny things: cars, fame, fortune, more stuff than they need, etc... Then those people, in functions, talking about Christianity and talk about faith and what not. Don't use religion to motivate people. Again: be humble. If you are a good person, you don't have to say "I am good because I am a Christian". What Jesus said about that? ==> Matthew 6:3 ==> But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,

         >>Let that sink in.
         Oh, by the way, Apple is Amway’s partner store, and I don’t think I have to tell you Apple’s reputation and its worth.<<

         Apple, SBX or other business being a partner with Amway store mean nothing, really.

         These are my thoughts and I wish you well.
         Sincerely.

      3. I appreciate your response, I really do. But we will have to agree to disagree. I cannot stress enough on the fact that it all depends on your upline. My upline are people that really helped me grow, trust me, the minute we feel any pressure it will raise red flags for us. Being in business for 7 months now, I can honestly say that they have been there for me to lift me up, not bring me down. For us, wwdb is a checklist. I absolutely agree with you regarding the Duncans. Their lifestyle doesn’t motivate me, but how they did it, thats what intrigues me. I have a different value system than them. But yes, I agree with you.

         My mentor doesn’t have to love me, he’s investing his time in me so I can disucss with him my accomplishments and failures, future objectives and life in general. And I am fortunate enough to have a mentor who shares his accomplishments and failures with me so we can learn from each other and grow. At a workplace, you report to your boss and talk to them about your future career plans. Difference is, your boss will be making more money than you, always, in the employment sector. But in this business, I can end up making more money than my mentor, because it is my business and I run it the way it works for me. Everyone needs a mentor/coach in their life, every successful person has/had a mentor to help master their craft – it doesn’t have to do anything with whether they love you or not. Remember, MLM system is changing, the newer generation is entering in this business and it will continue to change. We focus more on mentoring and coaching people.

         Some people just join it to pay off debts and create assets so they don’t have to rely on recruiting forever. You do what you want to do, its your own business. Again, depends how your mindset is and your upline.

         In my personal opinion, until an individual hasn’t personally tried this business and experienced failures, they can’t judge the business, the MLM system.

         All the the best and thank you for wishing me the same.

      4. Hello Ishrat, thanks for your reply. I am okay with agreeing to disagree. Also note that this article is about my encounter and experience and nothing else. My views about this business in my comments above are from research, lots of articles and from experience of others who share on the internet.

      5. you are living the scam, employee mindset, your opinion comes from years of brainwashing, I can’t blame you
         there’s people that waste their lives going to college get in debt and struggle getting in the field the they spent so much money on. now their spending the rest of their lives paying that back. the system we live under doesn’t work. the national debt should prove that, even if you make 100k a year you probably have no time for your kids and family you will always have to report to someone.

      6. The Amway system is no different and you are not being honest. You hide so many details where you guys swap “the boss / manager” with “the upline”.
         I am not against Amway per say but against the recruiting strategy and all their dishonest techniques. I am all for being one owns boss but Amway / WWDB / any other pyramid scheme is not sustainable / the way to go.

      7. For any of you reading this article and considering being involved with Amway, please consider this perspective.

         I have been involved with Amway for about 10 years. I have nothing to gain financially from anyone on this blog getting involved in Amway. I am well aware of its flaws, which lallous has exaggerated in my informed opinion. Where him and I differ are on the pros of building an Amway business and can speak from my first hand involvement, which lallous can’t.

         Getting involved with Amway has been one of the most rewarding experiences of my life. I too questioned myself in the beginning, but came to find out after choosing to be involved that the sources of much of the “research” lallous has done is either, true but not relevant, irrelevant, or completely false!

         lallous is not retired, financially independent, and is an employee. I’m not being critical of him and personally see absolutely nothing wrong with this if that is what you want for yourself. For those of you who want more from your life than this, my suggestion is to find someone who has personally accomplished that and learn as much as you can from them. You may find Amway is a good fit to accomplish more, you may not. Either is ok, but please don’t listen to the well intentioned, but misguided advice from this blog.

      8. Thanks for your comments. I hope others will benefit from your comments.

         I hope they also see how logical to compare MLM to stock market investment.

         I hope they believe that they have to leave their friends and family to follow the dream. Greed and deceit knows no limit. They should explore their full potential.

         I hope they won’t be upset when everybody else not falling for their scheme is labeled as “not a dream” or a “dream killer”

         I hope those reading these comments enjoy spending lots of money going to “functions” and buying “motivational” tapes to encourage them stay in the scheme and sell more MLM low quality products.

         I hope they keep recruiting so their upline does not disrespect them, get angry and lose money from the percentage that all upline take from downlines. I hope they recruit more gullible people so they “retire early”.

         I hope they don’t find it weird that after 4 meetings the MLM recruiter will still not utter the word Amway. I hope they are also okay with the subtle bait and switch / ego inflating techniques used to lure them.

         My poor readers don’t realize how bad it is to have a job. Very disgraceful, dump and stupid. They should really do MLM and recruit more people and alienate them along the way. Because if it is not MLM, then they are slaves to their bosses. God forbid someone says the MLM folks are working. No they are IBOs 😉

         I am not arguing with you no more dmb. I am very closed minded and unlike you, I am not financially independent and most unfortunately I am an employee.

         Too bad I am misguiding people. But hey, if they can be easily misguided then you don’t want them in the WWDB and Amway recruitment / MLM scheme, right? Don’t answer, that’s rhetorical. /s

         http://amwayscheme.blogspot.com/2016/04/amway-retirement.html
         http://amwayscheme.blogspot.com/2017/03/the-2-5-year-scam.html
         http://www.ex-cult.org/Groups/Amway/otherside/tosp27.htm
         http://marriedtoanambot.blogspot.com/2017/04/retiring-early-not-if-youre-in-amway.html
         https://youtu.be/s6MwGeOm8iI

         dmb, good luck to you and your successful endeavors.

      9. Ok, lallous, lets agree to disagree. Your recent post was so misguided and off track that I will not take the time to refute each point. Rather than us go back and forth, why don’t you share with your readers what your credentials are so they at least know what valuable life experience you have.

         Please share the following:

         1. Your current income
         2. Your current passive income(if any)
         3. Total value of assets you own(land, investments, etc.)
         4. Your expected retirement age
         5. What method would you suggest for someone who wants to retire early and build an ongoing income and if you personally have done this.

         These are fair things I would want to know from anyone giving me life advice.

      10. I never gave live advise to any one. I am sharing the deceitful practices by the Amway / WWDB recruiters. “An encounter with Amway recruiter” and “How to spot them”. That’s no advise. That’s a story of an encounter and another is a detailed analysis of their tactics. That’s it.

          Will that be the last of your arguments?

   2. Hi,
      I would like to read more about the success stories from some of the young entrepreneurs that have been successful in WWDB/ Amway. Can you recommend some sights that I can check out?
      Thank you,

      Reply

      1. Paula, good question. Please read the comments of those who defend WWDB / Amway and contact them.

      2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CiajG8g_QI

         Paula, great question!!!! hope this helps!

      3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oE_dbNWp7U

         Paula remember “Some will always look for what is wrong with an opportunity and some will always look for what is right! in an opportunity” That’s the different between negative and positive people, the way they are wired, not much you can do about it

   3. Well said. With all the negative I see on the internet, it makes,complete sense to not walk up to someone and ask them if they want to build a business using Amway …
      On the other hand, of someone is truly looking for what I believe to be the best opportunity for personal growth,and financial freedom, then they should look at this with a serious eye. But make sure the training system that teaches you is top notch.
      Thanks for speaking truth.
      Chris

      Reply

4. Reading these comments surely leave a bitter sweet taste in my mouth.
   Why expend so much energy to label all distributors as if we are dealing meth.
   Why not admit from the start that any industry with humans working it will have a the good .bad and the ugly as part of it.
   What makes Amway so special in your eyes, that it has to be perfect.
   There are professional networkers and there are scammers everywhere in every single industry.

   Why the evangelistic smear campaigne ,taking this oppertunity away from many prospects that that actualy were looking and got their eyes on this public toilet door.
   I respect the Amway distributor who responded so professionally in the previous comments.

   I have learned to work around the damage that dodgy networkers cause for us professionals. I educate all I present this business to about the baised
   labeling you find on blogs like this.

   What is the purpose of this one sided and short sighted blog?
   I am so thankfull i was presented this business.
   Still to this day no one was able to present a ‘feature and benifit’ list that comes close to this business model including the disadvantages of mlm which should be told to business partners by the distributers themselves when presenting this opertunity.
   I guess as long as mlm is not 100% perfect these baised blogs would be plastered all over the internet and even then someone would blog negetive about it being 100%perfect.

   I sell entrepeneurship, give hope,help and coach families to see themselves beyond their current position if they are looking…..
   What is wrong with that?
   What is wrong with registering and legitimizing your business,paying tax and building a big retail and consumer group?

   Why not acnowledge that you can be professional in business or mess up big time?

   Reply

   1. Hello Len,

      You are missing the point / message behind this blog post so your questions and wondering are really out of topic.

      I am describing my experience with the recruiters mainly: how they wasted my time, how insincere they were, how mysterious and deceiving they were. Sorry but that’s what happened.

      There are so many other blogs from people who joined and quit that tell horror stories, so my “public toilet door” is nothing in the bucket of all articles and stories on the internet, m’kay?

      Apart from the links I have in my blog post end section, here’s one more entry worthwhile reading: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/rantmode/amway/

      Perhaps you just search for: “is it good to do amway business” and notice how the majority of reports are not in favor of the cultish practices are used and how in the long run the efforts you put, if you put to learn another skill you will get the same gains.

      Yes, the other recruiter lady was professional. I respect her choices.

      So future commentators, don’t come here defend Amway. This blog post is about my encounter…sorry that’s what happened.

      Reply

      1. Your blog reflects one side still.
         Horror stories….
         Is that all?
         Im defending entrepeneurship .
         Why not copy and paste one of the thousands of positive well researched testimonies.
         If you have something better, tell me what you can bring to the table.
         I’ve had horror experiences in my life with landlords,bankers,plumbers, solicitors,mechanics,churches,friends,ebay where i still buy,just wisely.
         Your experience and the hardcore negative bloggers is far from representing this on a survey basis.
         I deal successfully with this stigma every day.
         It is annoying however.
         Its absulutely your right to publish your individual and subsequent 40 minute research project.

         Just try to find something legit and positive please, only if you want to, I’m not telling you to do this. It will look cheesy if i do it for you.
         Regards
         L

      2. Why do you keep missing the point?

         Yes horror story and waste of time with that recruiter as I wrote, that’s what it is about.

         You can find “entrepeneurship” anywhere else, it is a good thing, and I am not against that.

         This blog is about the practices/attitude of the recruiter that I encountered and what happened.

      3. To comment more on what I also find “horror” stories is when the Amway / WWDB IBOs are taught that anyone that is not one of them is not a dreamer.

         That they also teach women or men to only “marry a dreamer”, for instance.

         This is a type of “racism” so to say. I don’t like the “us” and “them” mentality.

         I don’t like how they label those with a regular job, as if it is a sin. How they are taught to despise regular jobs and the hands that feeds them.

         I find these kind of brainwashing where you are taught to judge others because they are not part of your group as “horror” stories.

         There are other direct marketing companies that have an upfront/clear business plan w/o all the hassle that a WWDB recruit goes through and having to spend money for tools (lots of tools all the time), or going to expensive functions, and buying motivational CDs all the time…

         Anyway, I expressed all my dislikes and that’s my opinion.

         Believe me, if you fear I will ruin potential recruits and prevent them from joining WWDB / Amway, then too bad. I am just sharing my experience. If you, as a recruiter provide a positive experience for the potential recruit then fine: s/he won’t be afraid to read this article.

         I am sure that are people like yourself, who will not be swayed by blog posts like this, and will take their chances and work hard. Nothing wrong in that. I advocate doing what makes one happy and honest with oneself and others.

      4. I appreciate this blog in its entirety. My 5th and final “exclusive meeting” was enough for me. Your experience is so similar (except I only dealt with 1 recruiter). The same script with different ad libs at EVERY bp meeting. Matter of fact, the only consistency is seeing my recruiter and HIS mentor. I initially wasn’t going to attend the “big bp meeting” after all this time I spent at Starbucks with follow- up appointments and driving an hour round trip to someone’s house to hear the SAME story about working minimum wage at bar to gaining financial freedom etc… The biggest problem was my recruiter at the 4th meeting gave me a piece of paper with the cost of operating my own business AFTER I had already told him I’m working 2 jobs, temporary single toddler mom, no extra help…. He had the nerve to tell me to not purchase anything from anywhere, not pay bills, sell my things in order to come up with the $ just to start a business where still not clear is my role or how to get offered partnership with wwdb to be mentored and start generating cash flow by buying from myself. The sad part is he doesn’t know that I know his mentor is the son of 2 of the “head honchos”. The anticipation of finally getting the business education I lack from people who are debt free drove me to want “it”. when I realized the 2-5 year plan didn’t actually start until 2-3 years after $ was given to them and partnership/mentorship was earned/offered (at the same time still having to pay monthly fees with $ I don’t have to POTENTIALLY earn alotta $), I left before the 2nd act/training performance that he “pulled some strings” to get me into. Lol. I was NOT willing to sit there and be called a bad mother, bad wife or bad anything else for working a job/career. It actually made me sad to watch other people soaking these “positive/motivational” words up not know that the speaker was calling everyone in the room, minus othe platinums, idiots only using big words and metaphors and jabs that you have to catch by turning your eagerness for acceptance off and turning your listening ears and good sense on. Thanks for letting me get that out.

      5. What else would you expect from cultish lemming-people who are so out of touch with reality? I’m almost embarrassed for them. Good thing you have enough sense to see through the BS.

   2. Why? Because most MLM folks of the Amway type (not limitted to just Amway, but a wide range of unaffiliated MLMs) are sleazy, hapless schmucks who are owned by the mongers at the top. I have been bothered by so many of these types and can’t stand their utter vacuity. I once attended a seminar years back when an acquaintance implored me to go. Quixtar was the group, I think. I was quite surprised by how cultish it was. A bunch of failed used car salesmen/women type. As a medical provider, I was made to feel I should escape my “less worthy” profession and save myself from a life of drudgery and insread embrace this promised freedom they offered. It made no sense, so I left, feeling rather duped.

      I make more in real estate passive income now than most of these MLM folk ever will. Sure it took about 10 years of hard work, but I now have assets with a real demand that I can also sell for a profit. You’re much more likely to do well by working hard and investing your money whilst keeping a low cost of living. Simple economics. What are your assets? Could you sell your business? What does your income in Amway depend on? Do your up-line support widely different perspectives? Do they appreciate deeply critical questions? Will they continue being “friends” with you if you disagreed and left? What is it that you really want anyhow and what will you do when you achieve that?

      Reply

      1. Thank you! Good questions, exactly my thoughts but I get tired to explain back to commentators.

5. Honestly,even concidering your bad experience i dont agree with the noughty list of ‘cultish’things mlm so fondly practice.
   I work in the aviation industry and have heard over the years cultish talk about the JOB arena by the employees that i dare not put on any blog.I dont even have to demonize the job arena.The employees do it themselves.
   We are netting less now than we did in 2006 with more hours per week ,no pension contribution from the company,no medical and the squeeze is increasing.
   This phenomenon represents the majority of the Job arena in Ireland and the your area.actually this is worldwide.
   Last year one suicide.
   Starting a traditional business is out of reach these days for so many.
   I see my collegues dreams fade away .Even the few that study their butts off part time cant find jobs or have to settle for yet a smaller wage with their new degree.
   The industrial age truly is over for most in the modern western world.
   We are competing against heavy aircraft maintanance hourly rates in Budapest and even high quality maintanance doesnt compete with the compeditive maintanance markets.
   This is the state of the real world job arena that no one has to submit to.
   How thankfull i am for the tangible additional income and the power of money and time leverage in my hands.

   How can i not share and teach this.

   Reply

6. @Ishrat I doubt you can leave the country for 3-4 months even as an IBO as your business will be in pieces. One thing I can’t stand Amway IBOs say is that IBOs can retire early and can spend time with their family. I see loads of Diamonds, Sapphires who are in their 40s or 50s etc going to different conventions and Spring leadership conferences and such. Doesn’t going to these events count as work? I don’t believe any of these people are retired in the sense that they are still working, and they are working a lot of hours on even mentoring their downlines.

   And you also mentioned that in Amway you can make more money than your upline and maybe even the Duncans. Well I can make a similar argument, that if you really work hard you can get to a high enough position like a Vice President or even a CEO. I guess you can say that a jobholder will never become as rich as the owner of the company so ultimately you are making someone else’s dream come true, not yours. But guess what I can say that, being an IBO you cannot become more rich than the owners of Amway. And that ultimately you are making the Amway owners’ dreams come true.

   Reply

   1. I can leave my business anytime. I don’t know if you know but anyway/wwdb can actually be run from your phone, just like any other business. If I have to communicate with anyone I can at any given time from any part of the world. Of course, I will need Internet, which you can find anywhere. Also, most importantly, I am building a team where I can put the trust in my team leaders. Notice how I don’t say my downline or sponsors because I consider them my business partners and I don’t just choose anyone to be my business partner. Amway/wwdb is a tool for me. If I plan on leaving for 3-5 months or even a year, I can and will put the trust in my business partners. That’s the team I am building.

      Yes I may be making the amway owners rich, but thats everywhere, any company, any business. You are eventually making someone rich no matter what you do because you will be using a system. It’s a circle. In my opinion, that’s not a valid argument. There is a difference between working and running your own your business. Also, I said I can end up making more than my mentor, not the owners of amway or Duncan’s. My goal isn’t to get filthy rich, not everyone in amway/wwdb is the same. And yes I can retire early with the help of this business because I can create assets on the side with this residual income. You have to be creative & smart and think outside the box for this business, just like any other. It’s a tool, it comes with instructions but at the end, you use it the way you want to. It is my business and I run it the way I want. My goal isn’t to go to functions and give speeches when I’m in my 40s or 50s. These speakers are not forced to do it, they choose to and they get paid for it. I see nothing wrong with that. It’s not considered “work” when you have a choice to either say yes or no.

      I am always up for a conversation where I can share my knowledge and listen to others do the same, not arguments where you have already made up your mind based on your general idea. Again, not everyone’s the same, there’s hundred thousands of IBOs. You don’t know how I run my business. You don’t know me nor my business partners. So I am sorry but in my opinion, you’re not in any position to assume or tell me that my business will fall to pieces if I go away for a period of time.

      I wish you all the best, Andrew. Like I said, I appreciate conversations, not arguments. With that being said, I will only reply here when someone asks me questions with an open mind, instead of arguing against everything I have said. I sincerely respect everyone and their choices. I am here to share, not argue.
      Best of luck.

      Reply

      1. Ishrat,
         I admire your comments and would like to talk to you outside out this public setting about prospects and recruiting and the whole ordeal, considering I am going through a. Tough time with a significant other involved with WWDB. My email is a6869574@gmail.com. I look forward to hearing from you and appreciate your time. Thank you!

7. I met my ‘mentors’ a year ago and was involved in the business for almost a year. I wanted so bad to make it in this “business” as I was fed and told so much bs – I was naive and didn’t even know what “network marketing” really was when I first met my mentors.
   I am officially a “quitter” – I quit the business because I was spending so much money on products and was not getting anywhere. I was having serious problems in my life and my mentors did not seem to care or have any sympathy, all they wanted was for me to “build the business” and “all my worries would go away”. They started treating me so different, and the people that I had met a year ago and thought were my friends, turned into money hungry people who only wanted to talk to me if I was contributing to their bank account. I felt used by them – I thought they actually were my friends, but they are not the same people I met a year ago. But that’s the whole game – they make you buy into them. You have to be aware, that these people go to trainings, to learn how to be likable and to attract you. They learn how to talk to you, and make you think that they actually care about you – they tell you that they want to help you build a future for yourself, and how they are willing to put all this time aside to help you and connect you to the people that they know, but it’s all a way to get your money. Be smarter than them. I wish I was.
   Let me break it down:
   – They specially target certain ages (19-30). Although they say not to judge people and to “share what’s available” aka recruit everyone, literally everyone. They say anybody over 30 is “brainwashed by society” and at the idea of working forever.
   – They also go for couples and not singles, because they feel like they will be more committed. SO if you are single and you join the business, prepare to be outcasted because they won’t spend as much time with you as they do with other couples.
   – They will pep talk you and tell you everything that you want to hear – THEY ARE SALES PEOPLE even though they say they are not. They are selling themselves!!
   – They will tell you that the opportunity is not ‘network marketing’ but to get around financially independent people. “I don’t know about you, but have you ever met anyone that retired in their 20s?” – that’s what they will feed you. “It’s all about who you know – and we are so blessed to be connected to amazing people…”
   – If you flat out ask them if it’s amway or network marking, they will say NO! They will say that the opportunity is for mentorship (which I think is kind of crap that they lie).
   – They will tell you how your job will never get you anywhere, and how you are 100% replaceable (which is true, so they make sure they hit a bunch of soft spots to really get you vulnerable). They will trash your job and tell you that society has raised us to think that it’s ‘normal’ to go to school to get a degree that will never get you anywhere but in debt, and to work a job that will never get you to your dreams, but that this business is the only thing that will give you time and money.
   – They will make you read books that will brainwash you more – honestly most of them are great books, but they all are specific to “the business.”
   – They make money off your membership (my upline wouldn’t answer me when I asked them this, so I went and asked a rep at wwdb and YES, they make money off of you not only from your amway products)
   – They will hound and pester you to go to EVERY event, EVERY training, and all board plans. They will tell you to sell anything to get there and get anyone to watch your kids because this is your future. They are able to see if you purchase your tickets online, so they will bug you until you buy them.
   – They will not allow you to talk to your ‘crossline’ – so all the people that your upline sponsors and the people that you are always around at functions, you aren’t allowed to speak to in fear of speaking negatively about your coach.
   – They will make you do ‘ditto’ on a specific date every month, so they know when their money is coming in. They will hound you about this in the days leading up, to make sure you put in your order. And they can see everything that you ordered, and they will be tracking how much PV you are doing.
   – The minimum order you can do a month is 100 PV which calculates to about $350-400 (they will lie and tell you that it’s not that much). That’s a lot of money to be spending on crap (in my opinion). They will tell you that it’s the best products in the world and that you are not to go to the grocery store anymore but to survive on only these products and to basically tough it out. And if you are only doing 100 PV, they will pressure you to do more and more and tell you that in fact, they are doing 500-700PV (which is aprox $1200 – $2200). They will tell you that for couples, the minimum you should be doing is 300PV a month ($800-1000). And they will lay it out for you like this… “do you spend at least $10 a day on food? They you are more than capable of paying for these products and consuming only this.”
   – They will tell you that it’s not a business that focuses on sales so that you don’t have to go around and sale products to people, BUT IT’S A LIE. You have to sell minimum 50PV ($150-200) worth of products every month. SO they will tell you to convince your family to be supportive and buy your products instead of buying from the store. If your family is anything like mine, they aren’t going to want anything to do with your network marketing sales crap.
   – On top of the minimum amount you have to do each month (100PV + 50PV) you also have to pay for your world wide membership + the communikate app + all the training materials and any functions that month. This calculates to be about $150-250 a month (so add that to your PV every month).
   – They will tell you to sale all of your stuff in order to pay for your products – I was told of people selling their beds and their cars. They will try to get you to do anything.
   – They make you be in constant contact with them every day. On their “communikate app” you are to tell them about EVERY CONVERSATION you have had with anyone so they can walk you through what you did wrong and how to do better next time.
   – They will tell you to stay away from your family and friends because they won’t understand that you are building their future and will be negative, they brainwash you to think that you are “helping people” NOT recruiting people.
   – They will tell you that your kids will not have a future if you do not build this business.
   – They will criticize you for everything you do – I find it funny because they are so “uplifting and supportive” but yet they judge you for everything and belittle everyone in society but yet they don’t want you being around people that do that.
   – The trainings, the CDs, all of it is brainwashing.
   – The entire business is hypocritical. I know that people aren’t perfect, but your upline will tell you not to do things that they themselves do – which really bugs me.
   – They will tell you to find any babysitter, and basically leave your kid with anyone so you can go to functions.
   – They will ask for a list of your expenses so they can see what you can do away with every month and put into “the business.”

   Stay AWAY!!!

   Reply

   1. ALSO – for people that tell them that this is a pyramid, they will tell you that in fact your job is a pyramid and that your making your CEO rich and you are all the way at the bottom.

      Reply

      1. I know. They don’t understand the difference between a pyramid and MLM versus corporate jobs that have hierarchical structure.

   2. Sorry you had such a horrible experience, Holly, because that’s exactly what it is if you’re not a brain-washed RoboFlop. I’ve been approached by many of these types on military bases and it’s always the same sorry schmuck of a person (not just Amway or WWDB, but all sorts of MLMs). Amway is in in fact a remarkably self-serving model that offers little benefit to society and most of the IBOs involved. Serious members often come off as creepy evangelicals proselytizing a cult, but with little to show. People like you cut thru the bull crap and drop it. The vast majority who stick with it, however, appear to be vapid individuals whom are grossly unsettled in their own skin–members of a fanatical church catering to lost souls as it were.

      Reply

   3. Holly, thanks for sharing your story.

      During my extensive research about WWDB and Amway sales people, I learned the same points you mentioned.

      Sorry they lured you in.

      Reply

   4. Exactly!!!!!!! You spelled the whole process out for people who are thinking or have even been appoached by this mysterious opportunity. THANK YOU. Its all true. I “disqualified” myself 2 weeks ago.

      Reply

8. stay away from Irvine Spectrum in Ca.
   The place is swarming with these people.
   We were approached by a couple named Jordan and Cheryl. They approached my wife and I and they were so ridiculously over the top excited about life, it creeped us out. They said they were retiring soon but they just seemed so weird.
   Come to find out, I work with someone who was approached by the same couple in Costa Mesa at Target and actually sat down with them for a few times before realizing it was in fact Amway and network marketing, as they said it wasn’t.
   Total garbage.

   Reply

   1. You were creeped out by someone who was excited about life…wow. I would prefer to be around people who are excited about life.

      Reply

      1. How did you come up with this conclusion: “people who are excited about life”? Is that how people excited about life look to you?

         – not straightforward
         – friendly for a cause. ask them questions and they became hostile…believe me, I have more stories about my encounters and how they turn hostile if I don’t respond as they were expecting per the scripts they learn and recite…

      2. is that you cheryl?

9. ARE YOU KIDDING? They at least were taking you through a process to see if YOU were a good fit for the business and whether YOU would be a waste of their time versus them wasting a few hours of your time. They didn’t try to lure you in and pressure you to sign up on the first meeting. You have got to give those guys credit for that. Going into traditional business for yourself is a risky thing. That is why franchises put applicants through a process. And seeing how negative and brutal many of these repliers are to your blog post, I can understand why they’d be hesitant to share just anyone their business. I do asset building and I don’t want every Tom, DIck and Harry knowing “what” and “how” I build my asset… if they want me to teach them then they need to prove they are worth my time. It’s disheartening to see how many average joes feel entitled to know everything up-front so they can make a quick uneducated judgement…. i personally would think that if this was a serious business opportunity, an interview process is warrented. And you, my friend, just failed that.

   And fyi- yes my old job was a pyramid…. the owner made ALL the money while he paid me in pennies compared to what I made him. And as inflation keeps doing its thang and cost of living goes up, he still paid me the same as he did years before. No raises matching inflation. Homeboy just kept on getting richer and richer while I had to put in more hours. and THAT is why I went into business for myself.

   Just my thoughts as someone from the outside looking in. Most of you prolly need this Amway opportunity because you’re too stupid and closeminded to even think. Just vomit out everyone else’s experiences. Not traits of successful people.

   Reply

   1. Hi Jo.
      Very well said my friend!
      Totally agree.
      One thing about all the HATERS you and I and anyone in this profession and the sales profession will experience daily is that haters like we see here tell more about themselves than about the networkmarketer .They most probably quit on themselves and have no where else to spew their true self.
      These haters fuel me .I need them and their insecurity.
      If they were true entrepeneurs they wouldnt show these ‘schoolyard fued crybaby in the victim traits’
      Bring it on haters!

      Reply

      1. I happen to be one of those haters. I also happen to have an income of over $200,000 providing a useful service to trauma and surgical patients. You sell candy bars to yourself and your family. But good luck to you.

      2. I dont hate on your game and income .Do you know me?
         You can do better than 200K .
         Dont flash your income in front of my face.it proves nothing.
         Next time you are prospected by a mlm entrepeneur rather ask them to tel you about themselves and and stop being so paranoid .
         Remember……theres a thin line between hate and love.
         You guys are very entertaining!

      3. Len,

         Good luck in what you do.

         Come back in 5 years and share your success and independence story. Success speaks for itself.

         If you fail and feel disenchanted, you are welcome to join the club of “haters” as you call them.

         Read stories of people who were sincere, perhaps as much as you are, to the business but then got disenchanted…they are not haters, they are fact tellers.

         Same for this article, if you read it again, it just tells my story. it is not hate or love it is what it is and what they did…

      4. Okay brainwashed…

   2. ARE YOU KIDDING? They at least were taking you through a process to see if YOU were a good fit for the business and whether YOU would be a waste of their time versus them wasting a few hours of your time. They didn’t try to lure you in and pressure you to sign up on the first meeting. You have got to give those guys credit for that. Going into traditional business for yourself is a risky thing. That is why franchises put applicants through a process. And seeing how negative and brutal many of these repliers are to your blog post, I can understand why they’d be hesitant to share just anyone their business.

      No, they are not taking me on a process to see if I am a good fit or not. They are luring me. They are not upfront, they are not honest.
      When they approached me and I asked them, “so what it is this business about?”, I was doing that to see if I want to invest time into that and if that is something I want or not.
      Instead, they dodge the question, play their “sales” trick and waste hours of my time. If they told me that at the end it boils doing to selling Amway products and recruiting others then I would have immediately said: “Sorry, not interested”.

      Instead they were hoping to entice me. So, this is where you call this “hate” and I call this “dishonesty”.

      I do asset building and I don’t want every Tom, DIck and Harry knowing “what” and “how” I build my asset… if they want me to teach them then they need to prove they are worth my time. It’s disheartening to see how many average joes feel entitled to know everything up-front so they can make a quick uneducated judgement…. i personally would think that if this was a serious business opportunity, an interview process is warrented. And you, my friend, just failed that.

      I explained above my view. It is not about any “entitlement” or anything. Read the above and understand my point.

      You compare their dishonesty and misleading efforts to an interview process? If this comparison makes you feel good about their practice, then I won’t argue with you.
      Normal people know that a job interview is nothing like that, nor it is misleading.

      And fyi- yes my old job was a pyramid…. the owner made ALL the money while he paid me in pennies compared to what I made him. And as inflation keeps doing its thang and cost of living goes up, he still paid me the same as he did years before. No raises matching inflation. Homeboy just kept on getting richer and richer while I had to put in more hours. and THAT is why I went into business for myself.

      Yeah sure. I keep hearing that line. My job is not a pyramid. It has the hierarchy of a pyramid but it does not work like MLM. So take that argument back from where it came from, we have dealt with it many times in the comments to this article.

      Just my thoughts as someone from the outside looking in. Most of you prolly need this Amway opportunity because you’re too stupid and closeminded to even think. Just vomit out everyone else’s experiences. Not traits of successful people.

      I tell you what Jo. Go, work hard with Amway and their MLM scheme and come back when you make some income and become a real business owner. I would be happy to hear your success story.
      From now until you feel burned out and change camps, there is no need to argue.

      Success speaks for itself. I will be waiting.

      Good luck to you. See you in 5 years right? Isn’t that what they promise you when you will be independent?

      Reply

      1. I see the word ‘luck’is what you think is needed in thhs case.
         80%of conventional businesses fail in the first 5 years…..because of the luck mentality…great excuse…I had no luck.

         Feel free to read ‘The E Myth’ by Micheal E Gerber.
         You will be blogging til the we hours for many years forensically disecting and exposing the disheartened would be plumbers,roofers,pie shops and shoe shop fails.
         Amway no different.
         You can screw up mlm by doing it wrong or doing nothing.
         Amway is not that special,I promise you that.

      2. “good luck” is an expression. Hard work and HONESTY is what matters. Amway is no different, the way it is being sold to people is: not straightforward.

         Enough said anyway. I won’t repeat myself or what thousands of people experienced.

      3. Still ,not a single positive word to be found on your keybord.
         That says much,but that Ive said before.
         Wherever there are people ,people will screw up and people will succeed.
         Dont label .

      4. I have to call things for what they are. I have “positive words on my keyboard” elsewhere in other articles. Seek and you shall find.

      5. Ive looked at some of the spiritual stuff and will give it a read.
         What is the hottest toppic on your web page now?

      6. Couple of technical articles are hot because they help solve problems.

         Here are a couple I recommend:

         http://lallouslab.net/2016/03/16/million-dollar-question-what-is-this-blog-about/

         http://lallouslab.net/2015/11/04/seven-chakras-and-spiritual-dating/

         http://lallouslab.net/2015/03/13/the-10-commandments-in-the-21st-century/

         http://lallouslab.net/2015/12/15/video-interview-with-michelle-vulama-artist-and-rock-painter/

         etc…

      7. One subject I cannot get my head around.
         Is Geo engineering Chemtrails at alk a conspiricy?
         So far i see many contradictions on both sides of the story.
         What do you you know about this?

      8. I heard about that but I have no opinion. Check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dogt7BsWYZE

10. Well, well, well,

    I came to this blog because I have attended four sessions so far with hardly any information about what the “business” was. I was promised more in-depth info last night and after two hours it was just repeating what was said in the Starbucks three times before. So, I came online to look at reviews. This blog was the fourth review. After reading all the reviews I notice that those who have experienced this recruitment have a similar story to what is unfolding for me. I understand the concept of making sure a person is the right fit first before letting them in but what makes me distrust this is how eerily familiar the success stories, the admonition for listening to family and friends and the whole process seems to be. If this is legitimate why do they have to recite word for word the same way?
    I was approached by someone I knew who wanted to share business ideas. I have a small business and thought it was genuine networking. I share mine. You share yours. Then I noticed the turn towards IBO. I am open minded so I went along. But how is it that you are going to approach me to become a part of something and then suddenly flip it and ask me to treat this like an interview and convince you why you should let me in. I never asked for an interview.
    Another thing I notice is that they kept saying that the “opportunity” here is to be “mentored” by the person who invited me. That was weird to me because the person who invited me was 10 months in and had not made any money. So I was confused about that. They kept talking about mentorship about life, marriage, finances and all that but I didn’t see where this person could help me with any of that as I knew for a fact that this person had bigger issues than I did.

    So I made my way here and I’m glad I did. I have seen both sides and the people who are saying Amway is misunderstood all use the same story and words and don’t seem to get that this actually turns people off. It makes me realize the dynamic presentation last night was dishonest. Even the jokes he told I saw some of them here. I feel icky for even laughing at them.

    If it quacks like a duck…it’s probably a duck.

    Reply

    1. Hi Jmommy,

       Thanks for sharing your story. I wrote this article last year and still to this day the recruiters use the same method.

       I feel the same as you and no matter how much the recruiters spin their scenario and try to turn it against us (they are interviewing us, they want to see if we are worthy, etc.) it is still a very dishonest method.

       I was like you, genuinely wanting to learn about a business opportunity but they were misleading and always hiding something. They only care about recruiting more people so THEY make more money. It does not feel they care about who they hire as long as they hire someone.

       Reply

11. I had an encounter with a recruiter at Starbucks, and attended a secret meeting at Loma Linda Community Center. About 150 people showed up. I wanted to find out more about this business myself. After talking with the leaders (doctors, dentist, nurses, engineer, and a student), I was deeply troubled by their secrecy and elitist mentality.

    After returning from the meeting, I read your experience and other online resources, I realized that Amway/World Wide Group is a misleading fraudulent business that manipulates people’s fears into stealing their valuable time and money in order to pay for the leaders’ and mentors’ opulent lifestyles.

    Thank you for sharing your story. I also contacted another friend who was also targeted by the same recruiter, and warned him not to waste his valuable time on his impending meeting at Starbucks. He thanked me for warning him.

    Reply

12. I was deeply offended by the recruiter’s words and attitudes. Here are some of the following:

    1. “If you have to carry turd for two years in order to become successful, would you do it?”

    What a demeaning statement! I do not consider myself a proud person because I have many flaws, but do not devalue me by equalizing my work as carrying a turd!

    2. “You said your mother was weak right? What if your mother dies in one year? Would you not want to achieve financial freedom so that you would spend more time with her?”

    How dare you try to manipulate my feeling about my mother in order to gain my business!

    3. “Why did God let our lives cross paths? It must be because you can attend professional school and do business at the same time.”

    I am not the best Christian, but I am a God-fearing man. You are misusing God’s name for your own selfish needs. How dare you! You give other Christians a bad name!

    4. “You can do business and study at the same time. I believe in you.”

    In order for me to be successful in school, I focus from 8 am until 12 pm every day. I cannot have a business while attending school. How many times do I have to repeat this! I told her at least five times.

    5. I had to skip a meeting because a friend was admitted to the ER. She asked: “Why cannot your brother be there instead of you?” “Would you miss a chance to interview for a job that earns $75,000 dollars a years in order to be with your friend at the ER?”

    There comes a time when we have to choose ethics and values over money. Plus, do not throw these hypothetical questions at me in order to manipulate my actions! You are not my conscience!

    6. After I told her money is not everything in life, She replied: “It’s not about money. It is about mentorship.”

    Mentorship, mentorship, mentorship…is that your favorite word?

    Reply

13. The lady was trying very hard to control my actions and thoughts. Judging by her body language and tone of her voice, she easily frustrated whenever she realized that I cannot be easily controlled.

    Reply

14. During the meeting, I was amazed by some leaders’ words.
    1. The speaker was boasting about his two-week vacation with his son while making fun of fathers who cannot spend quality time with their children. He then proceeded to mention how he retired his wife’s parents and not her sons!

    Sir, if you are boasting about the money that are made by misleading hundreds and thousands of people’s fears and hopes for the future, you are a dishonorable and disgraceful human being.

    2. I asked one of the top leaders a question: “What product are you promoting?” Her puzzled and rude response: “It’s about mentorship!”

    I did not study business in college, but I do know that “mentorship” does not make money! Selling products and services do!

    3. I asked the speaker’s wife: “Do you have a business card?” Her response: “We’ve done away with business cards long time ago.” “If you have questions, contact through your recruiter, Jennifer (false name).”

    A legitimate business that does not give contact sounds suspicious to me. Plus, this woman has complete control over all of her recruiters who provide “mentorships.” I am confident that your recruiters’ mentorships provided you with your expensive clothes, jewelry, and shoes. For your information, she decorated herself very well.

    4. I asked a leader who claims to be an engineer after having 10 minute conversation: “May I have your contact information so that I can ask more questions about the business?” His response: “I am very careful when I am giving out my contact information. If you have questions, ask your recruiter. She will contact me.”

    Throughout the evening, I asked three leaders for their contact or business card. All of their response was identical. “Ask your recruiter, and they will contact us.” This fraudulent business is made up of network of leaders who are manipulating their workers to sell their products. Products? My apologies…mentorships. They provide mentorships.

    5. I asked another leader about the business model. Her response: “If you want to know more, you must earn the right to learn more about the business and to have direct contact with us.”

    A legitimate business values transparency, honesty, and humility. Your business values secrecy, ambiguity, and lies. Plus, making a lot of money in your fraudulent business does not make you more special than me. I do not want to “earn” your trust. I quit!

    6. After having 3 minute conversation she said: “I can tell you have what it takes to be successful in this business.”

    You do not know me as a person. Please do not use your flattery on me. Your attempt to control my time and money has failed.

    7. During the success stories, two women was crediting that this business saved their marriage. If it were not achieving financial independence, they claimed that they probably would have been divorced. They insinuated that joining this business would have saved many failed marriages. Both of them even managed to shed tears during their presentation.

    Trying to entice other women into your fraudulent business by using their fears of divorce is unethical.

    8. The leader who organized the event is a physician. Several of her followers were nurses working in the same hospital.

    It is ironic that people who work to save lives are living a double life by destroying people’s time and money.

    9. The same physician told me. “I have been through professional school. I know the workload. If you are committed, you can invest 8 to 10 hours of your time while attending professional school.”

    You want me to “invest” up to 10 hours of my study time every week?! No thanks! You, as a former medical student, know each hour is precious, and yet you want to me waste my time making you richer instead of being dedicated to my academics? What a hypocrite! Do as I say not as I do, right?

    This physician who is supposed to be a leader of the community is misleading people for her selfish needs. Because a doctor is a one of leaders of this company, the average public is more likely to trust the misleading lies that are designed to brain wash the audience.

    10. The physician also said: “Don’t you want to rich so that your woman can retire and not work?”

    You lure women by using their fear for a potential divorce, and you try to lure men by making them feel shameful of their earning potential? How can you, a professional woman, demean other women by assuming that they do not want to work? You also insult women by insinuating that they are more likely to be married to a man if they are richer.

    Reply

    1. Thanks for all your comments. I am not surprised at all by what you write. I have spent a great deal of research and online reading (apart from my personal experience) and what you say is correct. It is a shame that those who are entangled do not know what will befall them in the long term. I wish people are more honest and less selfish in this day and age.

       Reply

15. I just think it’s funny that someone can extend their hand and take you through an entire education process with no opportunity to get “signed up” into it. They explained to you what the opportunity was, as well as what it was going to look like to succeed over the course of five years. Then because the opportunity wasn’t something you wanted to pursue, you wrote a blog about it to warn people? Then people come on here talking about a scam as if they aren’t apart of one everyday. All of us employees pay into a social security fund that anyone under 40 will most likely never see. We give a boss 50 weeks a year and they give us 2 weeks off. They have us work 5 days a week and they give us 2 and they then tell us we should be “grateful”. THOSE are scams. Let me ask, as an employee, can you EVER be the owner of the company you work for? The answer is no, which means you can never make more than the people above you. Sounds like a scam. I just think before writing a blog that could really hurt some peoples futures because an opportunity wasn’t for YOU is a little immature. But if someone is more influenced by a blog than allowing themselves to make a decision for themselves, then I don’t want to work with someone like that anyway.

    Reply

    1. Hi Cinman626. You made the following question/remark: “Let me ask, as an employee, can you EVER be the owner of the company you work for? The answer is no, which means you can never make more than the people above you.”

       A few things…

       Some of the very basic tenants of business are the concepts of VALUE, DEMAND, WORTH and PROFIT. If you run a company that provides a VALUE that is in DEMAND, then your company is WORTH more than you have put in to it. This generally means you turn a PROFIT and can either continue providing VALUE to your customers who DEMAND the services and or products for a real or unactualized PROFIT. Or you can likewise *sell* your company to another person/company/entity that sees future PROFIT from continued DEMAND from the VALUE provided. Some examples are staffing agencies, consultancies, medical clinics, subsidiaries and the like. My question to you is this: **Can you sell your business?** That is can you sell what you have worked hard on and developed to provide VALUE that has a real DEMAND, that is WORTH something in the real world? If so can you sell it for a PROFIT and walk away from it? No more managing it and likewise no more income stream, but now you have a butt-load of cash that you can use to build another business or use it however you please…

       The hard and fast answer is NO. You do business, like a pharmaceutical sales rep. But you do not own a business that you can sell for profit, just as sales reps can not sell the company or even their position for profit. Instead, you are a pawn in a PAWNzi scheme (see how I did that…clever). It’s not really a ponzi scheme–those are illegal–but you are part of a pyramid scheme, which, in fact, almost everyone in the world is. I provide medical services to trauma and critically ill patients… I, too, am in the pyramid. So are the hospital CEOs, surgeons, actuaries, insurers, yada, yada, yada… Some make more, some make less.

       But in the meantime, let me teach you the secret to a happy life: First, life is suffering. Realize this and take it as you will. Next, if your reality is based on grand and idealized expectations of future monetary and material wealth with far off promises of unlimited leisure time, you will never be happy. You will forever be in existential angst. Finally, if you truly want your world to be large and wonderous, rich and beautiful, you must continually make yourself small and insignificant through empathy and curiosity.

       Reply

    2. Cinman626, your arguing points have been discussed many times in the comments. In short, what they “presented me” was not something I like or not, or something that is for me or not. First, they were not honest and second (and from my experience and the other commentators’ experiences) those who present the business do it so that you contribute to theirs. Their business is essentially recruiting you, etc. This whole blog post is about how their approach is not honest and genuine. That’s all. I share my story and others confirm the same findings. So why defend such unethical / dishonest business?

       Reply

    3. Thanks for sharing these wise words. I totally agree. However, I will say that people who are gullible enough to buy into this negativity without checking out this business for their own selves, aren’t very sharp. Sharp is not letting someone else do your thinking and deciding for you. I personally know people who have gone from a normal $60K job to leaving the job and may much more than that now doing their own business. Also, people, please note: Amway is not the business. Amway is the SUPPLIER to OUR OWN businesses.

       Reply

16. Stay away from Starbucks people. As much as you crave that pumpkin spice latte, don’t go!

    Reply

17. Wow…. my experience is just a drop in the bucket! Like others before me I came to this website because I was looking for information…

    I went to a job fair and this guy is standing outside, wanting to talk to me and my wife. He says, I did what you did for 20 years…I only got a quarter of what I was actually making for retirement…

    He then invites me to, you guessed it! Starbucks. He goes over the cash flow quadrant, and also one of Robert’s Kiyosaro’s books. I inquired, he talks motivation, but why does he never speak of what he did? How did he go from nothing to millionaire in a span of 5 years? His response was, it’s not about how he did it. He was willing to do it. He had nothing and got it all. His book was a best seller for 10 years, he knows what he’s talking about!

    I expressed my frustration with him, you’re telling me a lot of things I know, but who do you work for what organization are you supporting? He said “myself”. Now at the time I was like okay, your own business or whatever, but now I realize he literally meant himself. He cared about nothing and no one, he only wanted to make his own ends meet at my expense. But that’s how it is sometimes.

    My meeting was 2 hours from the time of me writing this essay, but he slipped up and sent me some links that directly connected him to wwdb.

    So I searched it. Look and behold, this is where I ended up. And these stories, are quote for quote, my experience with this guy… it’s crazy.

    Reply

18. You are amazing buddy thank you for all your research much appreciated ! Here is my story,mmy wife and I had a similar experience here in Sacramento California we were in a local shopping mall with my child and we were at children’s arcade and put of nowhere nice young couple approached us and started chatting with us. After the Smalltalk the guy basically said I’m going to be retiring soon and I’m going to be financially independent How would you like to also? Of course, my wife and I were intrigued ( for all we knew he was a Donald Trump in the making ) so we continue to talk and we asked what they did and he said I can’t possibly tell you we do it would take hours it would be like me trying to teach unthe trade of welding in an hour . So he said what is your number we gave them our number thinking it was harmless we went our separate ways . Then a few days later he called me and I missed his call as I was busy with our kid .I completely forgot about him but then I remembered in the back my mind he said he wanted to make us rich beyhond are wildest dreams so I figured crap I just burnt my only bridge and I figured a true millionaire would give up on someone that didn’t respond back. But nope! This man kept persistently calling us back we eventually got to talk to him on the phone and he said how would you like to set up a meeting with us in a coffee shop so we can discuss what we do because we want to mentor you can basically make you rich . They also said Our mentors who are very rich and retired at age 31 . (Huge red flag) So of course we were intrigued we met up with them he told us must leave your child at home with the baby sitters we disregarded what they said and we took her daughter anyways( no way will be paying a babysitting ) we figured kind in the back of head IT was a scam . he told us to meet us at 12:30 with having a baby it’s never easy leaving the house we didn’t make it there till 1 PM they didn’t even care they said no problem that should’ve been a red flag warning number 2 ! Anyways they dressed all nice and they told us to sit down and we sat down! they said OK, tell us a little bit about yourself we want to get to know you. so I proceeded and I told them about myself then wife told them about herself .. they seemed like they were pretending to be interested and after that they said we want to make you guys money, we want to be your mentors . I proceeded to ask how exactly will we make money? what are you guys offering? what are we selling? Of course they were very vague they never told us and they just said it’s a product we sell, I kept asking them, what is the product but of course they just gave us the same ad lib answer over and over again ! Then they told us their personal mentors they met are very smart and one of them is a prestigious radiologist. They told us they know a secret that only the rich know in the elite only have been passing on this information to a very select amount of people, they been keeping it a secret for many years and they told us only 1500 people even know about it and all of Northern California. Okay so in my head I was thinking the whole time this was obviously too good to be true, I’ve been in sales my whole life so I knew exactly what pitch was and I knew exactly what a pre-laid out sale tactic is ! these guys were trying hard to sell us a dream, saying we were going to be financially independent and needed to be able to spend more time with our daughter and watch her grow like rich people do . Anyways after an hour they said we love to have you back in about three days we want you to read this book 1st called “business in the 21st century!” They said it’s in there truck outside, as we were walking with them out to the parking lot in our head we kinda expected a brand-new fancy truck yet it was an old dilapidated 2003 Tahoe! we figured these guys are so rich why wouldn’t they at least have a somewhat newer model car which was a red flag warning for us!! We got to the truck and when he handed me the book he stood in front of the license plate i’m guessing not wanting me to even see his license plate. it was so strange and fishy. Anyways we took the book we told them we would read it and meet them again they said text me if anything comes up we can always reschedule. So we got in our car and my wife and I were driving home we then started talking about what just unfolded! she said she remembered One keyword which they said was MLM I did a quick Wikipedia search and I read the first paragraph And I instantly knew it was a scam! just like my gut was telling me all along!!! I then found this webpage after doing some google research! anyway the moral of the story is: always trust your gut if something doesn’t feel right then it’s obviously not right!

    PS I was dictating this on my iPad with the baby sleeping sorry for the grammatical errors, I just hope this can save someone from going in to deep and actually losing money !!!!!!!

    Reply

    1. Thanks for sharing your story!

       Reply

       1. These creeps that prey on couples are real sleazeballs! They do it because they think couples are more vulnerable and open! I just don’t get how these people can become so brainwashed what is it exactly that they do them? My wife made the analog: it’s like if you go to a casino and you see all the flashing lights and all the pictures of people winning money on the wall, you throw logic out the door and you believe you can be next! Then when these con men get duped by there mentor ( put money into this scam business) they feel like they need to get it back! similar to when you go to the casino and you put $100 in to slot machine! You then continue to play because you tell yourself “I need to earn back the hundred I lost” and then you walk out of the casino losing $1000 ! Bottom line is these predatory ConMan prey on your fears and emotions so stay far far away!

       2. I asked myself the same question as to how those recruiters do what they do and the way they do it and why people fall for it.

          1 .I think the recruiter will do whatever he was taught / trained to do. Remember, at one point he was also recruited in the same way as he’s trying to recruit you. That’s his reality and that’s what he has been taught that WORKS and what should be done to new comers. Afterall, that’s part of the “mentorship” they receive: how to recruit new members

          2. As for those who fall for it. Since those recruiters frequent Starbucks a lot, I had the chance to be a passive listener to how the recruiters recruit people.
          They ask the right questions to awaken people’s dreams and hope. When the emotions are high, logic is thrown out the window and people are hooked. I would have fallen for them had I not experienced the hardship of life and the importance of hard work, continuous education and self improvement.

          Couples may fall easily because there is a higher probability that one of the couples will like the idea while the other may not. To avoid fights, sometimes the husband agrees to support the wife if she was sold the “dream” and vice versa, just to avoid breaking their marriage.

          For the young, once they take the initial bate, there’s a plethora of brainwashing “tools and tapes” that will keep them on the hook and always pumped up with the hope that “they will make it eventually”.

          There’s so much material out there about their practices, I only wish they are honest and upfront.

    2. No Dummy!, I just want to say that your red flag of the mentor couple retiring at age 31….that story is so true so many times over in this group of people (WWDB). So, it’s up to you. You can listen to people who truly are living a free life (they have both time AND money) OR do what you did and just listen to your inner negative voice. No problem. Lots of people do that. Especially in Sacramento! OMG. So many complacent people there. If you aren’t a dummy that is fine, but don’t think that these people who are living an amazing life were dummies to get into their own business (which is transferable to your children when you get old).

       Reply

19. I got approached by Amway’s recruiter last week and got lured the same way. Saying how successful his mentor and some of his team members are. Asking if I want to be successful like them too, and I was like you, clueless and on board when they talk about money and retired young. I got a chance to go to one of their seminar and the next day I made up my mind that this kind of business was not for me.

    The recruiter is actually a really nice guy and I want to end it on a good note. So I contacted him. WORSE DECISION EVER!!! He connected me with his other “successful” team member to convinced me. That guy was a DEFENSIVE bitch (pardon my language). He lectured me why I was wrong in everything, and I quote “You are such a closed minded person. “Blank” (the recruiter’s name) was mistaken when he thought he see something in you. Our team don’t need you. We have tons of potential people lining up to join our team. We have over 300 members in our team all across the U.S., we don’t need you. Let’s see in 5, 10, 15 years what you’re going to be. We have all these celebrities and President Trump who supports us, and you are so closed minded you shouldn’t be living in America…”

    The only thing I said was I don’t want to join the business and I got berated with insults. What a life’s lesson. Lucky I got out of there before I regret it for the rest of my life. So my advice, RUN AWAY!! RUN AWAY!! AND NEVER LOOK BACK!!!

    Reply

    1. Thanks for sharing. It is indeed their attitude that turns people off. They are not upfront, they think they are better than others and they belittle those who have no interest after they learn about the nature of the MLM business.

       Reply

20. First off, I would like to thank this blog and all the similar told stories. Here is my story about being in a relationship with someone involved with World Wide Dream Builders, WWDB, and soon to be Amway. Sorry for the length:
    My girlfriend of two and a half years got involved with WWDB a little over four months ago. She was approached at her place of work by a woman that showed much interest in her and wanted to meet up later that week at Starbucks to talk further. Well, the first couple times they met, they would meet for hours and my girlfriend would be so excited because this woman showed so much interest in her, gave her books to read and reflect on, and gave her hope. A little side note, my girlfriend is in her early twenties, has multiple sources of income, and lives paycheck to paycheck. I would not say she is a weak-minded, naïve, or vulnerable individual. I would say she is someone that jumped on an opportunity that sounded wonderful without doing her research.

    Anyways, at the beginning, my gf would meet several times a week with at first called her “mentor” and they would talk about dreams, goal setting, and overall life. When I asked, she was very vague, like it was top secret, which made me wonder at first, but didn’t think anything of it because I was happy she was happy. Well, weeks passed and her mentor introduced her to the others in the group, about 20 or so, and they all met up at a local restaurant. All my gf could say was she has never been around such “fun, open-minded, humble” people all at once, where she felt like she could be herself. At this point, she was involved for about a month, we still had communication, but she would disappear for hours without telling me where she was at or who she was with, would never text me when around them, and would never allow me to go along with her to meet these “amazing people.” I couldn’t understand why I wasn’t able to be around them, she made it sound so positive and fun, who wouldn’t want to go?

    Keep in mind, she got involved at the beginning of August this year. After the first month went by with so little information, September 1st hit, and that’s when everything hit the fan. All of a sudden, she was saying we need to take a two week break, with no communication, so she could grow and break the emotional attachment we had together. Upset and confused, I agreed. Prior to these two months, we were inseparable, happy, in love and looking forward to our future. To say she caught me off guard is an understatement. A two-week break turned into her saying we need a month a part with no communication or seeing each other. I agreed and respected her wishes and a month went by and she said she needs two-three months more months of space or until I finish college (which is in 8 Months-August 2017). After some more time passed and I demanded to meet for lunch and stop communicating through the phone, it was like talking to someone I didn’t know. She was laughing off everything I was saying, saying meeting with me was a waste of time, saying we are over and there is no us, saying I’m emotional and to not talk to her until my head is clear? UHM! I am emotional because the love of my life wants nothing to do with me for no apparent reason. The love of my life has no explanation for why she is treating me this way besides “I will do whatever my up lines and mentors tell me to do.”

    Some things she would say and actions she would do should help paint the picture: She has completely cut off all ties with family, friends, me, or anything that has a tie to her past, also known as “distractions that are hindering her from reaching her goals.” Everything she does and everyone she hangs out with is involved with Amway or WWDB because “she only keeps positive associations and takes advice from people that have made it and that the multimillionaires and her up lines believe in her.” She has blocked my phone number and several family members, making it near impossible to get a hold of her. She says her mentors will not let her “launch her business” until she is financially stable. Her mentors have helped her rearrange her resume and land a new job, which makes a steady amount of income. She says she will be “financially free” by the time she is 25. She is constantly listening to motivational videos and podcasts. She is always listening to people that “have made it” like Greg Duncan. She said she only associates herself with “winners and risk takers.” At one point, her up-line told her that if I was serious about being involved with WWDB, I would quit college, keep in mind I am a semester away from graduation. That is crazy! I told her absolutely not. She is very skeptical about who she spends her time with. She attended FED in Oregon this past October and multiple seminars locally. She goes out all hours of the night to places all around time. She spends a lot of time at bars and night clubs until 4 or 5 a.m., which is unusual. She is always looking up multimillion dollar homes and cars and putting them on her dream board. She skipped her brother’s wedding last month because it was too much of a distraction and she needed to stay in her town. I also heard that they do not support gay relationships, is this true? Considering we are two women in love? My mind is all over the place. There is much more to this, but this should be enough information to get some answers.

    Reply

    1. Continued:
       At first I did not believe it when people said pyramid scheme, cult, scam or any of those negative slurs because I wanted to believe in her and her success. I tried to support her. It wasn’t until recently I started doing my research and everything started to make sense and realized other people have similar if not the same story. I have read a short few success stories with Amway, but they definitely outweigh the sad stories I have come across. I love this girl with all of my heart, she is the love of my life, and I planned on spending the rest of my life with her. Although I realize there is no convincing her because she is so heavily influenced and involved, does anyone have any advice or anything to add? Is this normal behavior? How long does it usually take people to realize that nothing is worth choosing your family, friends or significant other over? I am a person who values relationships, so I absolutely can’t wrap my head around all this. This has been an emotional roller coaster for me the past couple of months. My heart is broken for her and it is all I can think about. It is near to my heart because I want to see the best in her and for her. I do not want to see her learn the hard way, lose money, or lose confidence or self-esteem. I know this is something she has to figure out on her own because she absolutely doesn’t listen to anyone that isn’t involved or “has made it.” I am close to letting go completely and walking away. But, after all this, if there is any hope that I can make things work with her, I will work it out. I hope whoever else that is going through what I am going through gets the answers they need. I wish everyone well and a happy new year!

       Reply

       1. I really hope you let your ex jump off a cliff with her mentor into the life of the rich and vain. Anyone who takes vanity over love is LOST. WWBD/Amway believe in the saying, “people you hang around with……” I don’t really know exactly how it goes because I don’t care for the saying because it’s false. Jesus spent time with lots of good people with completely different lives. These people are not trying to be Jesus, I know, but that is what is good. Just being around money/asset successful people or only like minded people is not healthy and not genuine. All we can hope for it that these money/asset successful jerks (there are lots of genuine nice successful people) make bunches of money and when Mars is ready they take their arrogant, selfish, disdained, shmuck faces to live over there. What we see Earth today was not the only way, we all just got mucked centuries ago by a man who loved shinny shit and fighting, and it inspired the wicked and tricked the good. I hope you found love (: because that last bia was not love.

21. Thank you for this article. It has helped me to realize what my family is being propositioned with.

    Reply

22. Just to add my 2 cents to this discussion. I was involved with Amway and more specifically World Wide Dream Builders for just over 2 years. I had just came out of the army and was directionless about the next steps I wanted to take with my life.Never before having any ideas about owning my own business I met a police officer and his wife at my workplace who prospected me and took me through the education process as it was outlined in the article. They were great people and I truly believe they think they are helping people in the best way they know how. But unfortunately after that 2 years of working the system and prospecting between 25-50 people a month I saw little success. And what hurt me the most was when I bought into this system I pushed all those people closest to me away. As one of the leaders Brad Duncan continually teaches to snip out people in your life who don’t agree with what you are doing. This caused me to remove lifetime friends and even my own family from my life. As well the continual upline pressure to continually purchase products from yourself to match PV caused me to spend over $19,000 on products I would never use normally and drove me into debt that I am still working my way out of. Eventually I became disillusioned with the lack of results comparative to the amount of work I was putting into the system. and took a step back from the tapes, functions and association of people who were in the business. This allowed me to start to look at the practices and routines of the organization I was working in from a different perspective and to question why I wanted to continue working a system that had made my life miserable since being introduced to it. The one positive I will say for Amway is it really builds the idea of business ownership in individuals who may never consider it for themselves before that. After that break I decided to start several internet businesses on my own away from Amway and have been seeing fantastic things start to return to my personal relationships,finances and outlook on life.

    For these people who are saying that Amway is a family and that your upline really cares for you. I challenge you to stop accumulating PV, attending functions and prospecting people for 3 months. Then see how many times your upline or crossline will reach out to see how you are doing without bringing up getting started in the business again or touching base to keep you from dropping out of their organization. In my case my upline who I considered to by my friend of 2 years never called me once after I stopped. Implying that your value as a person is decreased to them once you stop building the system because you are shamed with the title of quitter or dreamstealer.

    Keep up the good work with this blog people need to have someone telling them that this type of system is not made for everyone.

    for some additional internet business ideas look up the Amazon FBA program or Affiliate Marketing. These are much better ways to use the internet for a business then the Amway model.

    Best Regards,

    -Andrew

    Reply

    1. Thank you Andrew for your honest feedback. You went through the experience and came back to share objectively what has perspired. All the research on the internet lean towards a similar experience to yours. When the *dreamers* wake up, it would be too late and lots of debts to pay out and friends to re-acquire.

       Reply

23. I’m just curious whether you get paid to write the articles to attack Amway/WWDB but you don’t need to answer that because you would probably say No. It really is interesting how you spend so much time dwelling on this and trying to convince others to join your misery. I would have done something better with my life than writing a blog expressing my bitterness feeling towards Amway or WWDB.

    Reply

    1. Donald. You guessed right: I was not paid, instead they robbed me of my time and eagerness by being shady and dishonest and not upfront.

       I would love to hear something else from WWDB / Amway defenders. Something like: yes, you are right. We approach unsuspecting people and lie to them in order to lure them into something without being upfront and personal about the type of business.

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24. I read this blog and it makes me sad. I didn’t want to comment to be honest but I think the problem isn’t with Amway or WWDB the problem is with the people..on both sides. All I see is everyone saying that “I’m right and you’re wrong” but lets see if we can look at things objectively shall we.

    I am very familiar with the “Amway Opportunity” I am also a part of WWDB; however I am not a robot; I have a mind of my own. I have First Degree in Computer Science as far as my educational credentials are concerned.

    First of all, let us not confuse Amway with WWDB as the are two different things. Amway just provides a business model that can be leveraged to earn extra income; Amway CANNOT and WILL NOT teach financial Independence. What they provide is a System and you leverage that system to earn. WWDB teaches how to leverage the system and earn efficiently(think business school). All business uses systems, and systems that work, makes money for that business. Amway makes ALOT of money and doesn’t owe a dime; very few companies can say that (Now I know you might just have thought “Of course they do! The scam people out of their hard earned money!”, but read on…). Amway is NOT a scam if it was they wouldn’t have A+ ratings with the Better Business Bureau; Their CEO could not be the head of chamber of commerce and They’d all be in jail if it was a scam.

    Amway left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouth in the past and thats why IBOs usually try to avoid dropping it on the “first date” or two. Mentorship is whats available, but only if you want it, only if you are willing to work for it.

    World Wide Group is an organization created by Ron Puryear and His wife back in the days as he realized that people need to educated on how to “build the business”. Very few people in the world, let alone america can claim to have impacted as many life that he did. I respect the man and the things he has accomplished and WWDB has dome so much for me and my fiancee and many friends that I have made so I can’t agree with a lot of the bad experiences that I have seen.

    I am well aware that there are some bad people that gives the association the bad name though. These are usually guy who got in recently and are either not being coached properly or not taking advice from their mentors. As far as I know we are to be respectful of other people’s opinions; If someone doesn’t want in, respect that, wish them well and leave them alone (It’s a free country after all). This business is for those who want it. I am sorry that you guys had to experience what you did and WWDB is not perfect we are improving everyday.

    I am not making any money yet but thats my motivation I wanted the association and mastermind of positive thinkers and all I can say is I am not disappointed at all. WWDB is everything and more in keeping my mind of this nightmare of a 3rd world country I live in. Sadly a lot of us are motivated by money when I comes on to working I am no exception. If the stop paying me at my Software development job I’d quit in a heart beat but with WWDB I started thikning about how I can help others, how I can probably contribute to making the world a better place. Yes I could probably do it without them but before they came alone I only thought about me and my family.

    Anyone who choose to cut off friends and family and say “my mentor said to do it” is just finding excuses. If my mentor told me to jump off a cliff should I do it? I’d encourage people to use their brain and not allow people to tell you what you can and cannot do or you’ll never be truly free. Mentorship is advice not commands. Listen and try to make sense of whats being taught. If you can make sense ASK QUESTIONS. I don’t blame the OP for being skeptical of the recruiters who where secretive with how the explain (although I can see where there were some misunderstandings i.e. they tried explain to him but he didn’t get it)

    I’ve seen alot of people who said the were in for like 1-2 years max here and you know why? Because those who are in 3+ years are making it and don’t have time to waste on stuff like this (so you know I’m not 3+ years in lol). All the guys I know who killing it are 2+ years in and when I say know I’m talking personally.

    Finally, life is HARD. Inside MLM, outside MLM only the people with the right mindset and work attitude make it.

    ;TLDR
    Amway is not the problem; WWDB is not the problem; its the people who make it or break it….just like any other thing you can think of under the sun…work, school, church, etc.

    Reply

    1. The business model will work, for sure, not doubt about it. Like you said it takes you’re desire for money and what you will do to get it. It is the genuine ACT that is bad taste. Mentors keep relationships based on you making them money by buying their products. You will never know who they actually are until you stop buying products. They are sales people with money on their mind. Personal relationships are part of making money with this business plan.
       These are vain relationships. I do understand the 3rd world ain’t an easy place to live and takes more hustle to make it. All Im saying is that it’s noone fault for WWBD/Amway not working for them. It is all in your personality. What will you do for money. But, more than anything do you have the Salesmanship to be successful at it. The Disguised Salesman as a Genuine Relationship. It’s not bad just hard and feels wrong to some.

       Reply

25. Just wanted to take some time to discuss some of the points that you made in your previous post. Amway might not be classified as an Illegal pyramid scheme but unfortunately the system is not designed for everyone to become a founders crown or diamond. If hard work and sticking with it long enough were all that it took to achieve these levels of income then why is it that only a few diamonds are broken every couple of years out of all the thousands of distributors in North America? And in the last 20 years you can count the number of Crowns on one hand! People will spend 15+ years in the system and only be at the platinum or Ruby level with a consistent work habit of talking to new people and attempting to grow their business. Like you said you knew people who were crushing it at year 2+ But on the flipside I also know people stuck on the same pin level at year 10 frustrated and doing anything to make it to the next level.

    And as for you backing up the Amway corporation with the BBB rating I would advise you to take a look at the link I’ve posted below. To sum up the BBB was accused of running a pay-to-play rating system where companies that paid a certain amount were grant an A+ rating.

    http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/business-bureau-best-ratings-money-buy/story?id=12123843

    The problem with WWDB is not the association or the positive mindset that these type of events and mentorship can bring to people. These in fact are fantastic things to have and one of the parts I really enjoyed the most from the experience. But what I DO have an issue with is WWDB selling people on the idea of just hanging on for another day and clinging onto hope instead of honestly evaluating if the time and money being put in is worth what they are getting out of it after a certain point. Yes traditional businesses go into debt and will not be profitable every year. But if a business was constantly losing more money in expenses then it was earning it would close up shop, As that is not a sustainable business model.

    As well those people who do go onto cut off friends and family are not just weak minded sheeple as you implied in your previous post. But are taught with all these seminars and meetings that in order to be truly successful in the “2-5 Year retirement plan” they must get away from negative people all together and pay the price to be successful. Being only exposed to the same people and teachings who discourage others from reaching out to outside sources(Ex the internet is only full of negative people, friends who might be skeptical of WWDB) is one of the staples of a brainwashing environment as it suppresses critical thought process and ideas. And being brainwashed or not does not simply come down to a matter of choice. It is a gradual process of scheduled meetings and functions and business trips that see’s people remaining in the system for years and years being told that next year they will attract the right people to them and be able to retire or pay off that mounting debt.

    Yes life is hard but you do NOT need the Amway business model or WWDB to be successful in it. Success is very achievable outside of it but most IBO’s will never consider the option that a better way exists outside of “the system”.

    Reply

26. Hi there,
    I thoroughly enjoyed your article, and it hits so close to home. Currently my husband has been involved with Amway for over two years. We have zero downlines, and spent thousands of dollars and it has caused tension in our marriage. He thinks it will solve all of our financial problems. I don’t know how I can make him see that it just doesn’t work. He thinks that I am uneducated in the business world.

    Reply

    1. If he isn’t one heck of a salesperson or someone that everyone likes he will not make it. I hope it is all figured out by now.

       Reply

    2. Here is an idea: Its a 2-5 year plan of daily effort, why don’t you both together ask at least 3 people every day if they are open minded when it comes to side business projects… that is 3285 contacts over 3 years…. you can NOT tell me that you can Not build an Emerld business (150k-250k) income doing that!!! IMPOSSIBLE! Go help your hubby and work as a team for 2-5 years of DAILY consistancy and you will see the fruit !

       Reply

27. LALLOUSLAP:
    I FEEL BAD FOR YOU. I wish I can help you. According to you this is wrong. I encourage you to also GOOGLED good and positive feed back too. Obviously most of what you have is negativity. YOU FIND WHAT YOU LOOK FOR. FOR EXP. my CHURCH. I greatly believe in what I believe, but yeah there is also so many bad, negative, and horrible things in the internet saying the opposite. Come on, You work so much that I bet you don’t have the time to do lots of right research and actually apply good things in your life.. The highest point of ignorance is rejecting something you don’t know nothing about. Sorry to say that you dream based on what you budget lets you. Also to all the people saying it takes years to get to different levels. Please understand that you get there YES BASED in your hard work for Example: ( when you were a baby and started to walk did you ever tough of giving up because it didn’t work or walked the first time you tried and because it hurt you gave up……No you didn’t other wise you wouldn’t be walking now) others walk faster then others. The Fear to fall. Anyway …. If it was a scheme we would be forcing people to join, but we don’t! The people chose them selves. There is just so many things out there. The purpose is to master you, to find things you could do you didn’t think you can do. Believe that the impossible is always possible. I personality love helping people and my medical field just wasn’t covering all can to help others. Many things I dreamed to do when I was a kind to become successful I already did. Sadly, It didn’t help much. Open your heart/ brains. Sadly the incompetent people will always want to see the negative because they are just lazy to do the hard work. ( hard work is not by recruiting others!, BUT by developing yourself in creating new habits of reading books etc.. The best investment you can do in life is to INVEST IN YOURSELF!!!. People with professions thing they meet success. Success is having a loving wife/husband, family, friends, health, religious and financially ok. They spent so much time working in someone else is dream. I am glad to say that there is more to this, I am a now a business owner my self and has help me so much. Appreciate things I have in life and also trash out bad habits I had (like drugs, bad significant other, and bad friendships) not because they told me to, but because you start to realize you morals an values by studying your past life and wrong choices. I did wish I would off known this WWDB way before because I would have made better decisions wouldn’t had got hurt so much like it did. God bless everyone and good luck with your negativity. Money doesn’t buy happiness. What we do is a way of life, this is not a get rich quick thing!

    Reply

    1. Hi Yulie,

       Based on your poor command of the English language and your senseless arguments, you really have little ground to stand on. Besides, the attacks that you have thrown in the author’s direction have no basis and in fact, far as I know, he’s very well-traveled, well-read and independently earns his own income based on royalties for proprietary work. If what you are doing makes you happy then continue doing it; someone’s exposé of their perception of your choices should therefore have no bearing on your contentment…unless, that is, you deep down feel subtly misguided.

       Reply

    2. Hello giant log in your EYE, be quiet Judas! You are the reason and the problem in the church, be careful . . . PRIDE COME BEFORE THE FALL!

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28. This web is also created to make money from our comments… I know its poor. I wasn’t going to waste to much time, other wise I would off had gone through it and etc. I did not attack anyone it is just my opinion. If the shoe fits. Good luck to everyone in general. I mean no harm and I want the best for everyone.

    Reply

    1. Once again, pride comes before the fall and that is guaranteed or your money back. Don’t attack those who do not agree with you, who the heck are you?

       Reply

29. I was in a cult once.

    I know this is random, but it fascinates me how WWDB uses the exact same tactics as the LDS (Mormon) Church- which is how I recognized the cult-like behavior! Just like a missionary in a white shirt and tie gave me vague statements, telling me only easy-to-swallow doctrine (“milk before meat” is the Mormon phrase), a WWDB member in a white shirt and tie hesitated to give me the full “doctrine” until later on. Just like the Church tells you, I was told that skepticism is a bad quality and was essentially taught “faith.” Just like the Church tells you not to look online because people post lies and to only look through approved sources, WWDB told me to only look at WWDB-approved sources for reviews! Just like I was drawn in by the friendly like-minded social scene of the Church that gave me warm, fuzzy feelings, being with the like-minded people of WWDB gave me those friendly, warm, comfortable feelings. Just like I was shamed for having doubt and then shunned and disowned by my Mormon “friends” that I had been close to my whole life, just because I was “deceived by the brainwashed ‘World’/devil (a.k.a realized I was in a cult), I hear of people getting disowned by WWDB friends for leaving and they also are isolated from family/friends- though my friends at WWDB seem genuine and I haven’t had any negative social interactions (quite the opposite- I’ve only met stunningly good people. I can’t relate to these posts of “evil people” and “bad vibes.” I’ve only felt peace and good vibes- kind of like the “Spirit” that I felt in the Church!). In fact- just like how in the Church I believe the members aren’t deceivers, just deceived, I think the person teaching me is innocently brainwashed. Just like you hear “you can’t judge the church by it’s members,” you hear people here saying you can’t judge WWDB by a few bad eggs! Now I hear someone saying “Pride comes before the fall-” the exact same phrase they use in the LDS Church for non-believers, word-for-word! The irony!

    Having been in a cult, I am very suspicious when I see these tactics. I’m staying only for the experience and to give my friends (the two WWDB members I trust) some practice in their leadership/social skills by “mentoring” me, while the books and tapes they give me are teaching me valuable principles and making me a better person. I feel I have nothing to lose and only things to gain if I don’t officially join and just enjoy these temporary benefits/learning materials/networking. Plus- my buddies and I have so much fun after meetings, just goofing off and being unprofessional, secretly talking about our wild younger years while our mentor isn’t listening 😉 We’re really close. I’m just gonna be honest with them about what I really think and we’ll probably pair off away from Amway and do our own thing/build our own start-up together!

    Oh- and I forgot to mention the manipulative flattery. Oh, well! It already built my confidence whether it was genuine or not! lol! Overall, I’d have to say the opposite of the writer and say I’ve had an overwhelmingly positive experience and met great human beings that built up my moral character and life and keep me on the right path. Either the members here in Utah just have higher moral systems because of their religion- or I’m just one of the lucky ones, I guess!

    Reply

30. Also… these stories sound eerily similar to mine. Just like a previous story posted on this site, I go into a room full of well-dressed people and a guy is asked to hold up his energy drink (obvious promotion). The man says it would be worth shoveling dung for a couple years to be successful, as posted in another story here. I wonder if this man in said story also happened to be a fast-talking guy flown in from Seattle…? Hmm? Did he currently have a daughter in Hawaii? Then our stories would be the same.

    Reply

31. Recently I overheard a conversation about how to retire early instead of working for someone else. I got involved in conversation and the guy doing all the talking told me his son was involved and was looking form people to train to help manage all the extraordinary growth within a large company. I asked who the company was and rattled around in circles for a few minutes and said his son was who could explain it. An hour later I had coffee with his son. He assured me that the company provides individuals with management and business training that was so wonderful that it is essentially equal to going to university for 5 years. Nice thing is, the mentoring and training from wonderful experts doesnt just provide you an education like a university student, but you get to set up a distribution company in the process which can be so profitable that some people retire after 5 years and the residual income goes on forever, like a pension. He told me the minimal costs to join, to attend training meetings, etc is all tax deductable and most people set aside a space in their home as an office and deduct that cost every year as a tax write off. And people involved are buying for themselves and distributing to others all the things you wood normally buy anyway. He said it is like getting a rebate in cash at the end of each day you go shopping. I was sitting back listening and acting naive. I said you can only claim expenses against business income if that business expects to make profit, in other words you cannot create a little business that makes $1000 a year profit and then try to claim $5000 in expenses against it with the intent of slopping that expense against other earned income as a “business loss” I said I had been in business for years as a manager, owner, consultant, technician, etc. IN other words I have been around the block a few times on most issues we were discussing. Seen one, seen them all. He said the company was World Wide Group LLC from the States. I said this system only works for the guy at the top, not the guy the bottom. He said “oh no, everyone gets their cut.” And we would just really be distributors for hundreds of different well know large corporations. I said OK, lets say I order something for $100 and all it to my neighbour for $120. Shipping was free. Then the company eventually pays me $5 for selling their product for them. So I made $25. He excitedly agreed and started rambling again about how great this is. Then I said ” if you sign me up, then you get $5 or whatever on that $100 item too. He agreed. And the guy above him? Yep he would get a little too. Finally I said “think it thru. If I have 15 people above me in my chain, even at a few dollars compensation to each of them, plus my original $25, somewhere, somehow that original $100 item has now shrunk by about 50% so that the manufacturer must be willing to sell his product at half price. The marketing organization sure isnt doing the manufacturers any favours. Why would manufacturer want to do all that screwing around and lose $50 in the process. The smile on his face gradually faded, he thought for a minute. Then shrugged and said he never thought of it like that but it must work cause lots of people are in the program. I said it does work, but there is a reason the guys at the top get rich, the guys at the bottom didn’t, and the manufacturer is willing to stay involved. He sat waiting. I said the guy at the very bottom makes a little profit when he delivers his product to his neighbour. So he wants to repeat and make another little profit. And everyone between the bottom and the top make a very small cut. The more people you have signed up, the more very small cuts add up so the guys near the top make the money just from volume. And the cuts to everyone between top and bottom are so small that the manaufacturer is selling his product for almost the same amount he normally would and he is willing to forego that little reduction in per item income to make it back on volumn. He was lookinf confused. I said that their are ponzi scams, there are pyramid scams, there are variiations of those scams and other scams. They all work the same way. And the fees paid to join, etc are part of the money filtering back to people upline to keep them pushing for new recruits. And I told him there is no way that a few videos to watch, a few mentors to help, and a few books to read will, in a short time, give me an education just as valuable as a university business degree. He argued that and said the training is considered to be outstanding. I asked if you get a certificate or anything when you are done training that you could add to a resume for later. He said no. I said that any prospective employer later would bust out laughing if you handed him a certificate (like the ones they give McDonald’s employees who have attended Hamburglar University) that says you are now a trained Business Manager. I kept pretending I was skeptical BUT possibly interested. I said you know this sounds like Amway. He said the company is not called Amway, they are called World Wide Group. I left it that day that I would get back to him. I talked to someone in law enforcement in another location and he knew about this organization and he confirmed that basically they are either strongly affiliated with Amway or had based themselves on Amway’s business model. And it is the old story. Convince someone they can get rich and sign him up and collect some fees and encourage him with a little training and seminars where the guy at the top stands up and shows pictures of his private island and mansions, and tells audience they can do that too. Then hopefully for every 10 signed up, 1 or 2 actually stick it out and dont get rich but they do make enough to keep them involved and motivated to chase the dream. The other 8 drop out. So the fact a few get rich and some others make enough to keep them believing is one thing. But what about the hundreds and thousands who bought the idea, invested a little money, put all their time and effort in, drove their friends and themselves half nuts, and finally realized that the dream was just a dream. I phoned the guy back after a few days and said that all my original suspicions were confirmed and that I had legal and law connections on both sides of the border that told me the same thing. The organization is designed to create money flow to the top of the pile, to be just a whisker on the legal side of the line to avoid prosecution, and the training he talked about being as good as a university degree is really a carefully planned approach to train people how to recruit other people and seperate them from some time and money. He said he appreciated my feedback and then ended by saying he was sorry that I couldn’t see the big picture and had bought into all the propaganda put out there by other companies jealous of his companies success. I said his company is acknowledge to be connected with Amway since the 70s as their official trainers on how to run multi marketing like Amway. He didn’t seem to know about the Amway connection so I told him to look it up. He said I shouldn’t be so negative and so far he had been succesful after being involved for only a year. I asked if he still had a day job and he said he did but was planning on dropping it once this other program got profitable enough. I asked how much the program was paying him. He said he averaged almost $100 a month in the first year. So I guess about 8 more years, if he is one of the few who succeed, and if he can double his program income every year, and he will be up to point he could drop his day job. But that is a very tall order. Another way of saying unachievable dream,. I hope this whole long article opens some eyes before any money changes hands as a fee to come work for a great organization. Right. Every great organization, after they interview you and decide they would like to have you aboard, then asks you to pay ti be allowed to join. .

    Reply

32. All this seems pretty sophomoric when it comes to evaluating a business opportunity. You would want to ask how long the person showing the system to you had been doing this and then ask to see their 1099 form from the last full year. Either that or copies of commission checks from the company. Cut to the chase. Not one single lower level Amway person has ever done that for me.

    Reply

33. I always do enjoy reading different blogs, and might I add this was a very well written blog 🙂 let me give you my story and realistic view of WWDB/Amway. I grew up around this business and I saw my parents personally fight hard to provide their 5 kids with a great lifestyle. My dad is a conventional business owner, he runs car rental businesses. I can honestly say, the business my mom and dad built gave us a great lifestyle growing up. We got to go on free trips, Disney world, and lots of other fun places. We had great association, and got to attend private schools and they paid for college as well.

    That’s the good. You ready for the bad? It’s freaking hard to build the business. It does take substantial effort to do well, as it does with any business. The people I have seen succeed in the business are people who have a genuine interest in others, and don’t have a recruit mindset. There’s no doubt the business works, you just need to work it, and it’s hard!

    Growing up, I never once heard my parents bash jobs or conventional business and same with their upline. Let’s be realistic not everyone is meant to do Amway it’s not meant for everyone.

    As for me? Do I build the business? Yes! Why wouldn’t I? I saw too much success from it. Plus I have a family of 5 lol. Do I go out deceiving people? Nope. I am very transparent with people. I was always taught being honest and of good character is the way to build the business. While building my business I am a Mortgage loan Officer.

    As for my parents are they still active? Nope. But they still get a very nice check each month from their incredible effort and incredible laying of their foundation.

    Again, Amway does work. But, it is difficult. It takes lots of effort. It is NOT for everyone. But it is an incredible business 🙂

    Hope this helped!!

    Reply

    1. Finally someone with WWBD/Amway that seems genuine. Yes, it is not for everyone. Most people will not make money and quit. You can find statistics on being successful with WWDB/Amway and it’s like 1% that make good money. It’s really low but like any business a small percentage make good money. What really sucks is all the people wasting their time, money, hope. Also, a relationship that only lasts as long as you are with WWDB/Amway. If I leave a job my close relationships continue because I like the people, it’s not like that with WWDB/Amway. Furthermore, there are tens of thousands of people if not hundreds of thousands that are just paying the top tier people and will never make it and quit, that sucks, but it is the only way it works. The cycle will continue because we always have children being born and new people for WWDB/Amway to make money from. Remember, there is an amazingly low percentage (1%) of people making money with WWDB/Amway. That low success rate will always be because that’s the only way it works and allows the top tier to make money. We will always be the suckers, behind closed doors.

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    2. Thats killer man ! See u at diamond club… go rock this thing as it is easier than when ur mom and dad did it… yes it still takes work but less… proud of you !

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34. I have encountered Amway reps before, but have not been privileged to have it happen the FIVE times it has happened to you. I guess you go to coffee shops more than I do! Here is a document I made up and gave to the last one I met, in October 2001. It must’ve worked, I haven’t seen one since!

    WHY NOT AMWAY?

    • It requires you to sell your friends. For most normal people this is difficult and alienating
    • It requires you to be a part of ‘The Brotherhood’ – If you already are part of a ‘brotherhood’, a serious devotion to your cause, you don’t need another brotherhood
    • This brotherhood is based solely on materialism, they talk, eat, sleep and live for what they can obtain from you, the potential Brother
    • Instead of working an eight-hour day for ‘the man’, they devote every waking hour to ‘the beast’ of materialism
    • In order to get you into the Brotherhood, they use deceptive psychological means; meetings, tapes and books that never mention The Brotherhood, the product or even the company
    • The leaders of The Brotherhood are all rich, made rich by the millions of converts who themselves, for the most part, will never become rich
    • A few of the converts must become rich each year in order to continue the ruse, it will not be you
    • The rich Leaders of The Brotherhood must continue to recruit additional Brothers in order to continue to become richer
    • They use ingenuine, even illegal means to make adherents, and are under a court order to change their marketing practices and claims because the gains they proclaim, like diet formulas are ‘not typical’ and are just plain impossible for most people.

    Amway, and marketers like them, are best described as ‘Pseudo-religious Corporate Proselyzing’.

    Feel free to print and use as you see fit!

    Reply

    1. Thanks for sharing. I agree with what you say but I am sure it will back fire. Wait and see the comments once the Amway recruits read what you wrote! 🙂

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35. I really appreciate your article in many ways! First, I had the same experience 3x but I only got past encounter 2 or was it 3, where I had to read a book. Each time I got approached I felt weird vibes and felt these people were brainwashed and said the same story in the same way. I got curious tonight, after yet meeting another one of these people and thought to myself, I can’t possibly by the only person that has encountered this and really what is their approach on this, selling a product or making us give them money? You pretty went all the way to be able to write this article and I only wish there were more of these articles so people can watch out for these groups of recruiters that prey on the weak. Thank you for sharing your story. I feel less alone and befuddled by the whole experience.

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    1. Yeah, you really need to watch o it for these people. They are going to try to trick you into dreaming again, and force you to read books that will help you become a better you. Then they will trick you into letting them help you build a business for yourself and force you stop make so much money that you will never have to work a job again.
       They are so evil for wanting to help people make more out of their future and make their lives and their family’s lives better.
       Don’t get suckered in, it is so much better to continue working for someone else’s dream instead of your own. Don’t quit your job, your boss and your company need you to keep working, and your kids are better off being raised at baby jail by some minimum wage employee who know how to raise and teach your kids far better than you do.
       Down with these “recruiters” being a paycheck to paycheck wage slave is so much better.
       (Insert sarcasm here)

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       1. Chris…you may not see the point of this article although I have explained it over and over again. The way they approach possible recruits is not right. The way they are secretive is not right. The way they give claims and compliments, etc. is not right and honest. And saying that working a 9-5 job is a bad idea is also not right. Saying that Amway is the only way to achieve independence is also not right. So please stop being sarcastic for no reason. There are 100 ways to improve yourself and the Amway / WWDB techniques are not the most honest ways. Stop selling this dream as it is a God sent solution…man…Please tell us about your own success and how you achieved your Amway dream….

       2. Well said!

36. Right…..how dare them for complimenting someone and giving them another option to put time and money into an ASSETT that can be willed to your children and to your family instead of someone else’s family who did what you wouldn’t do because your so skeptical you can’t trust your own judgement let alone someone else’s ….

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    1. How funny Brittany….you failed, like many others, to see the bigger picture. They are giving dishonest compliments just to be friendly not because they mean it. They teach you this things in sales techniques…thanks for your sarcasm…

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       1. I gotta wade in,one more time. Almost every time someone makes a comment that exposes or opposes what you “believe” or have already stated three hundred times you mock them and tell them that they have missed the point of this article or website.
          You have already shown that you are skeptical about this whole experience,and you have voiced many times about the “dangers” and “deception” and manipulation”, but skepticism is actually a lack of knowledge which you definely have. You don’t have an honest clue about what we do not why, because you never took an honest look at it to actually learn. By all means be skeptical and ask the tough questions but don’t be a fool that spends your life trying to warn people away from making a better life for themselves.
          You asked,me about my success and my experience in this business and I never shared because you and your anti Amway cronies aren’t hear to learn, you only want to drag others down to your pitiful level of self defeat. Misery loves company, right.
          Here is a challenge for you. Go do some research on the Amway corporation, and tell me why, if it is such a scam, one of the largest cities,in the US named a sports center after them, why they have paid out over 4.4 billion to families that want a better shot in life, and why nearly a hundred fortune 500 companies have partnered with a scam.
          But you say, “oh chris, you don’t understand, that’s not the point of this article, I’m just trying to show that some people building this business don’t approach people properly…” Have ya ever gone to a car repair man and have him screw you over? Geez, better never have anyone work on your car, they are all crooks. Pfft

          Chris

       2. Chris R, You accuse me of lack of knowledge. I read books on Amway’s cult (Amway: The Cult of Free Enterprises and “False Profits”) mentioned at the end of the article. I interview ex-WWDB people and how they lost their friends, lost their senses and luckily came back to sense, I read all there is to be read about it on the internet. I read about the failed Diamond members, the Duncans, the bad and overpriced products that are sold, about the dishonest approach and keeping people in the dark (oh because people can’t get it and need a few sessions of brainwashing and dream pumping up), etc. Trust me. I don’t care what you people do. I hate the dishonesty. You talk about a car repair man? The car repair man does not come to sell you the IBO dream in the hopes that you become his upline and you start buying overpriced stuff from him. You can get scammed once, but you are not aliened from your friends, called names if you don’t follow his dream, etc… come on. I thought you could come up with better comparison about dishonest people that try to lead you on as WWDB recruiters do…

       3. And hey Chris R, my last reply to you. If you are upset about my article, go read other people’s articles as well and complain to them. I am not the only person who found out about the scam early on…. Here’s one for the readers: http://www.moneyaftergraduation.com/2013/09/16/amway-is-a-pyramid-scheme/ . Go complain to Carnegie Mellon as well: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Amway/AUS/cultism.htm …be honest Chris.

37. @lallouslab, in reading your original post and comments, it’s quite apparent that you are not a neutral party. While your original post seems to put you as “interested and open,” it’s obvious that you are not and never have been.

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    1. I am a disgruntled party that was unhappy by the dishonesty and the approach.

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38. It’s one thing to Tell people what you think but a whole other topic to LABEL things as a SCAM. These people are working hard to educate you on what they do and WHETHER YOU AGREE or not to their practices you didn’t lose any money? You possibly got mad because you trolled and RODE YOUR OWN EMOTIONS and it didn’t turn out to be wrapped up in the box you wanted it to be?!
    Do you think that adults cannot do research and make decisions by themselves before sites like this start influencing people what to believe? At least let people do those own research before spoiling what could work or NOT WORK for them.
    My point is that you may give them your opinion of what you don’t think works but what’s your solution to people who are LOOKING for another way out of their current path?
    I have done research on Amway and some other companies and yes they make money off of people like any business does…..including any other company (that is commerce) but PLEASE get your facts straight. These so called RECRUITER PEOPLE don’t make money OFF of people.
    In today’s world it is so filled w fake news created by people’s opinions they forget to let people do research on their own. Let these people work hard to build trust and educate people. If people don’t want to meet 6 (or whatever times) all good. If they do then they must really want to learn a new industry. Honestly is shorter than a college degree…..AND FREE

    Reply

    1. Im writing all you who think in a funny way. Sooo jonny, lallousab can’t write an opposing point of view on WWDB/Amway. This is what you wrote, “Do you think that adults cannot do research and make decisions by themselves before sites like this start influencing people what to believe?”. Wow, that’s really funny how you think research should just show positive things about WWDB/Amway. Research anything it will always show both sides or more. So should everyone stop writing about this WWDB/Amway so they can influence anyone however they please? Oh jonny boy, lallousab is doing the right thing and giving an opinion that you can agree with or not. Opinions should always be shared especially about a company. Any opinion that says to not have an opposing opinion or an opposing view is a dmbazz opinion.

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39. Haha! I’ve been wondering which specific multilevel program they were peddling. 🙂 really appreciate you taking the time to write this.

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40. One, more thing. You must not have carefully read Business of the 21st Century, because in the 3rd section (I believe) of the book, he specifically talks about MLM/Network Marketing — how THAT IS the Business of the 21st Century. Clearly.

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41. In reference to Jason above, when an upline said to be careful about where he gets his input, he simply means see if who you’re looking to for advice has fruit on the tree. For example, lallouslab, unless you are financially independent, nobody should be looking to your for advice on becoming wealthy (not that you are doing that). Just an example.

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42. Clever DODGE! I’m sure I wouldn’t want to answer those questions if I were you either! You would look very foolish after being so critical of people trying to pursue their personal goal in life of increased financial stability(albeit a different goal from yourself), while lacking personal creditability in the area of finance.
    is
    Your ridiculous claim of not giving advice on your blog is laughable. I will illustrate your strategy:
    1. Attend 5 totally free and optional business meetings when after the first meeting you read a book about network marketing of which you are disinterested in.
    2. Write a blog claiming deceptive practices of ALL people involved with Amway(You could have easily told the person talking with you after you read the book you had no interest in network marketing)
    3. Litter the comments critical claims followed by your pious alternative financial strategies and advice
    3. Backtrack and claim you don’t give advice(Can’t have your cake and eat it too)

    Once again, to those reading this blog, ask yourself if you want what lallous has in life before listening to his one-sided viewpoint.

    Reply

    1. I do have to give you credit though lallous! It’s not easy posting a critical blog of a company with literally millions of satisfied business owners and customers and then responding personally to every comment! You must be a busy person!

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       1. YOU ARE LYING! There are not MILLIONS of SATISFIED businesses and customers. Are they satisfied because you said so? Only 1% make big money so why would the rest be satisfied? Dag namit

    2. I like llalous. Makes good points on dishonesty in WWDB/Amway. What have you done dmb? I haven’t done anything big, but doesn’t mean I don’t have a valid opinion. Remember only about 1% make good money. What are you making with WWDB/Amway dmb? Out of all you people defending WWDB/Amways ways of dishonesty none of you have boasted about how successful you have become. I’ve been to the big meetings and all the successful people talk about things and stuff they have been able to buy and of course time. I don’t see anyone talking about that because most likely none of anyone here had made it big with WWDB/Amway. Remember only 1% make it big. Most likely it won’t be you if you are here writing on this page, because it takes a lot of hustle and time to make it big with WWDB/Amway. Im not a 1%, and here I am just like all of you. People like all of you defending this business without making the top dollars are how they stay in business. WWDB/Amway soldiers ask how high when you say jump and will fight when they ain’t making shii.

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43. Hi,

    The same exact thing that happened with lallouslab happened with me. Met this guy Chris Tripi at the gym and he said he may have a great opportunity for me. We met at Starbucks 5 times just like lallouslab before I got the whole deal of what it was. Basically you supply your household products with their products and slowly find “partners” to do the same. It’s funny to me how for weeks they made it seem like something BIG and I would learn a lot. I told this guy Chris before we met the first time I am not interested in buying products or selling. Of course being a sales person he said that wasn’t what it is. My main issue is that you can’t be a genuine person doing anything like this. They make relationships based on (“partners”) people they recruit buying products. They need to keep a good relationship with them so they keep buying the products. They can’t let people they recruit get to distant because they will stop buying product. So they give everyone a little attention and hold meetings to make sure everyone is doing what they need you to do. They talk a lot about “Mentoring”, but that is just another way to gain your trust and be your psychologist so you feel they are really there for you. Again, just another way they influence people and make themselves look like a leader and get people to follow. I honestly believe that this Chris guy that I was talking to until my 5th meeting believes in Amway 100% and that is an honest way of business. He is a great sales person even though they hate being called that, but it’s nothing but the truth. They make sales seem like normal human interaction and really pull you into following them down whatever road they tell you to take. I hate sales because I can only tell it how it is, and will never boast something or leave out the facts. Only like .05 or some crazy percentage like that make money from AMWAY, the rest are just trying and feed these few money makers. This is GREAT if you are a PROFESSIONAL SALES PERSON and don’t care much about genuine relationships. I know many people like this and it doesn’t make you bad or lesser than an honest person, just different. This can work but you have to work people in a way that is disguised as being genuine. If you got what it takes try it out and maybe you can be on stage talking about all the money you have made and the cars, house and amazing trips you go on. All paid in Kashh, lol.

    Reply

    1. I was a part of WWDB for five years. Relationships are all they build and care about. You get legitimate help and mentorship from the people you get sponsored by and you build friendships that are like nothing else. I’m not really active anymore due to Covid but I know I could call up my sponsor and upload anytime and ask for their help.

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44. Hey lallouslab!

    Im going to be upfront with who i am before going into my comment. I am a IBO with Amway and i just started my business up. So im still impartial to the ways of Amway and still fresh in mind of how things are. I am 25 and in the first phase of building myself before starting to build my business. Also not religious since i saw a few comments on here but here is my story into the “process”.

    Actually i was told about this thru my work, my fellow colleague talked about opening his own business and stuff and it piqued my interest. So i asked him what he wanted to do to which he said “he didn’t want to explain in since most people laugh and don’t understand” but after a few weeks i convinced him to chat with me with his wife about it. Few days later he came back to me and said they were too busy but would introduce me to someone who can meet with me and tell me about it. Gets my information and then i wait for the call.

    I think three weeks later i finally get a call from the guys wife, who wants to do a talk first before introducing them to her husband(which now i know he has a stressful job and is very busy) and from there she just asked about who i am and what i know from my co-worker. It was a quick and brief meeting and full of sincerity, So they set me up to go to a meeting, but to be sure to dress as im going to a job interview. lol funny thing even doing that i still felt so under dressed compared to everyone. I was ready to bolt because my self confidence was down the drain but i was glad i stayed. If anything it was so wonderful to be surrounded by all these people who were welcoming and happy to be there. Like i have to say 100+ people just for a meeting was astounding.

    From there on i got introduced to the Process. When the meeting started The Platinum(now Diamond) of the the leg i was invited into. He surprised me, cause i was sure he wanted to have as many people to join his business but instead he was very adamant about you being there to learn about the preliminary information about going thru the process. It blew me away that he asked people to leave and i don’t remember what he exactly said but basically it was “if you are wanting to hear the success principles in the next hour or not want to spend 2-5 years in this then please leave now and not waste your or my time”. From there James(not his name) talked about his life and really got the room to feel open and fun. Then he delved into the process. Gave us a basic outline on how the business works and told us “each part of this will take more time to explain then i have, so its best you go to other meetings to learn the parts” and to “do your homework and ask your sponsors questions”. The meeting for me was just a start of a motivational boost, and excitement. It was there i meat the Woman my co-worker had gave my number to who was their sponsor and met the man of the hour who my co-worker respected. Was happy, friendly and they both were quickly to introduce me to the room.

    After introductions to James, and others they sat down with me and booked a follow up appointment. They then gave me the smallest book i have seen called the “go-giver” and gave me a HW assignment to write a summery about it and send it to them before my follow up. Now a little just me here but if you haven’t the book is amazing, it takes literally a hour if you are quick to read. I did that and the book just resonated with me and made me think about what i though on people. Quickly my followup hit and it was at my co-workers sponsors house, where they asked me what questions i had and explained to me what i wanted to know. No questions not answered. so i grew more and more excited. and was set up to another meeting.

    Next meeting was basically the same i did the last time but i could look at it with another set of eyes and really took the “do not waste your time or your sponsors time” if i was not committed to learn. My thought was i just get to be around great people if it didn’t work out, so i continued going to meetings and followups and going thru the “process”. It was then i went to my first Brad Duncan meeting and my co-worker and his wife were excited. I guess this was a important guy so i was ready to go and frequently told “hey this guy will say things you don’t like so focus on the mentality part”. Brad is Harsh to the reality of today’s world where you don’t want to be told the blunt TRUTH of things and how you are. To me he was a breath of Fresh air and really made me question why i did things. I loved the meeting and surprised many people at how well i took things.

    But skipping over the rest of the meetings i did, i just want to say not many people in my opinion do it right when talking to people about this. Immediately i was told it was not a easy thing to do, that i would have tough decisions but if i wanted to be successful i would have to build it and ask for help and questions from those who have done it. So i am sorry that your experience was a lot of questions and no answers, i have heard horror stories of uplines who don’t believe to being upfront and not wasting time of people. I just kind of wanted my story to be a hey not everyone in here is bad or wanting to make it big fast, and even if you don’t do it going to a meeting or learning from success books does help your life. But thank you for the informative read and i wish you the best in your future!

    Also i hope it didn’t feel like i was attacking you or anything. Just kind of wanted to show another side of the coin.

    Reply

    1. It is a scam. Long story short, I am a lot happier when I left Amway. What really pissed me off was when my so called mentor made a comment that some of my friends and family were not compatible with me. As an ex IBO, I do my part to warn my friends and even strangers to stay a way. Recently had a victory when by chance saw an old Amway colleague trying to recruit a friend of mine to the organization. I put a stop to it right away and my dear friend who I have known for 15 years is greatful after I explained the recruiter’s spin trying to promote Amaway.

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       1. Sounds like you are on the right team… you are young still i think so go kill it !

45. I’m sure if you’re reading this you or someone you know has had some type of experience in network marketing, maybe good or bad, we all have had different experiences. If you’re someone that’s coming through the process to earn an offer in the business I suggest you convince whoever is sitting down with you to work with you. What the people on this blog that have gone through the process fail to realize is that the process is in place to sift out the negative people, why would you ever want to go into business with someone so negative, we look for positive people that can wrap their heads around this opportunity. I’ve been around groups that focus on selling and recruiting but I’m happy to say I found a group that is truly all about mentorship and leadership and that has been a game changer for me. I work with WWDB and I utilize amway as a network marketing platform. My coaches and mentors have absolutely changed my life and I am extremely grateful for everything I’ve learned from them. We truly set ourselves apart from what you see in other traditional network marketing companies in that we do not try to sell or recruit anyone on what we’re doing, although I feel like I am a little in this article. What sets us apart is that we have an interview, selection, and qualification type process we take people through and get them fully educated about what we’re doing before we would ever give them a chance to work with us and that is an absolute game changer. The logic is that I would much rather run with one that sees the true value in this vs trying to drag a hundred along in to doing this. I know my mentor would not approve of me writing this but if I can help one of you reading this, that’s the impact I’m looking to make and that’s the heart of most people in here that are WWDB members. The reason I say most is because there are always going to be some money hungry selfish people that make it through the process into business and my hope for them is to become changed by this system from selfish self centered people into becoming focused on others and becoming a servant leader. I was a money hungry selfish arrogant kid when I got around this business but the system has changed me in ways I can’t describe, it has helped me become other people focused and a servant leader. Through helping other people become successful you will become very successful and that’s the beauty of this business. I’m now 1099 and get to write off all the business building costs for taxes as well as part of my living expenses and a whole bundle of other things. I would choose that any day of the week vs going into thousands of dollars of debt to build a traditional style business. Now take into consideration that I have a mentor with success in all areas of life I would like helping me do what he has done, when I got my head wrapped around that and saw what I could accomplish I could not walk away from that. He has helped me get debt free, put money in the bank, earn more at my job, be a better partner to my wife, forever changed me as a person, and is in the process of helping me retire from my job before age 26. If you want to talk about percentages I should also mention that the divorce rate is about 2% for the couples that are in this business because of the mentorship you get and the connection you build with your spouse while doing this. This organization is an absolute powerhouse that is all about mentorship and leadership and if you commit to what we are teaching and actually apply mentorship in your life there is no reason you shouldn’t be able to walk away from your job over the course of 2-5 years. 2-5 years vs the traditional 40-50 year plan of staying at a job, you would have to have an A+ in bad math not to pick the 2-5 year plan. I’m building my business not because I enjoy the dinamics of how it works, I’ll tell you right now this business was not for me and it takes a serious commitment and personal change but it has the results in life I’m looking for, complete control of time and money. If personal growth and development is something you’re serious about and you’re of the right mindset and truly are looking pursue your own financial freedom here is a link to my website, http://qualityconsumables.mychoices.biz/Home.aspx My contact info is on there and I’m not going to try to convince you about anything I’m doing and if you’re going to contact me to argue just save us both the time and stay away. I wish all of you the best of luck in your future endeavors and I hope that you too are doing to positively impact this planet.

    Here are a couple educational links for those of you that are looking to get educated.

    WWDB.com
    Iboai.com
    Amwayconnections.com
    Amwayonebyone.com
    Ibofacts.com
    Globalnews.amway.com
    Euromonitor.com/amway-claims
    Showmeamway.com
    Showandtell.amway.com
    Bbb.org
    WWDB.com/vid/planvideos

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    1. Praise the Lord!!!!!!

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46. I am approaching this as a best friend of someone who is part of WWDB. I am writing this long post in part because I saw this post and it reasonated with me, and because I had to get my thoughts about this on paper, as a way to vent my frustration about the fact that I dont know how to approach my best friend about how he is making a potential mistake without really putting a strain on our friendship. Before anyone attacks me with the following:

    – ‘You are just a 9-5er working for someone else, and will die that way’
    – ‘You are a dreamkiller’
    – ‘you are lazy and unwilling to work hard to achieve financial independence’

    Here’s my background:
    – I have my own consulting business that I started after being laid off from a large defense/government contractor in 2009.
    – I didn’t make enough money from my business to support myself for the first 2 years, but too much to claim unemployment, so I had to work a second job as a bouncer/security guy at the local bars.
    – When not at client sites/meetings, I work from home, make my own schedule, and for the most part, have time for friends, family, and several hobbies
    – While I hesitate to say that I am wealthy, I do have my own home, a 401k/IRA, a rental property, have no car payments, and have been able to build a nice, albeit conservative investment portfolio
    – I have been in business for 7 years, and have only experienced one year of negative growth
    – At times I do work more than the typical 9-5er, but any independent business owner does this. Its the price of working for yourself.
    – If you are still skeptical (this is the internet), I can show you proof of my business’ financial viability and continued growth (can you? more on that below)

    Back to WWDB/Amway, lets start with the positives. Its clear that not only Amway, but WWDB has invested an incredible amount of time and effort to really perfect the materials, targeting, and pitch for this ‘opportunity.’ While the methods can seem questionable to some, it undoubtedly is effective, based on the number of people who are involved with them. If I was in the field of marketing, branding, or P2P or B2B sales, I would definitely spend some time studying this approach, taking the best parts of it and applying it to my own sales strategy/tactics, just not as an IBO with WWDB/Amway. I have in fact, read a few of the books ‘Slight Edge, rich dad, poor dad, business of the 21st century, and was able to glean bits of information that have benefited my own business.

    I also have to point out that it is not a scam, as all other pro-WWDB/Amway posters will tell you, the company has solid BBB ratings and despite a few stumbles in their history, one could also argue that which successful company hasnt stumbled on their way to greatness? AirBnB (Pressure from hotels), Uber (sexual harassment scandal, pressure from competitors), Facebook (fake news, selling personal data), Tesla (cars killing people, model 3 delays), the list goes on.

    Now for the negatives…While it is not a scam, the methods in which people are recruited and sold on the model is in itself, deceptive. While the model might, with a lot of hard work, produce a nice supplemental income, WWDB/Amway preaches financial independence from the 9-5 job, and I think that is really misleading. Can people be successful with it? Sure. Will they be able to quit their 9-5 job? Not likely. Will most fail? Almost certainly. Its a genius sales model really. They claim it will take 2-5 years to really see a profit and go positive. Because this statement applies to a majority of businesses starting out, this simple statement keeps IBOs churning along and their uplines paid for long periods of time.

    I have been approached by several ‘recruiters’ touting the same points as many others above have mentioned. I have, out of curiosity indulged their pitches to learn more about the company and it’s approach. The real kicker that ends most pitches by the third or fourth meeting (only one has made it to 4 meetings), is when I ask for solid figures. As with any business opportunity, I ask the tough questions, and I dont want just an answer, I want proof. None of the people who approached me could give me solid details or proof of success, or even sustainment/break even. Some were better than others at deflecting my questions, but to me, as a person wanting to go into business with a company, these questions were simple and fundamental, and the fact that they avoided even mentioning Amway until the 3rd or 4th meeting, or showing me any real numbers or statistics, is a huge red flag. I am shown business models, promised mentorship, etc, but lets be honest, the reason you go into business, especially one like this is to make money, and if you can’t show me solid numbers of projections, its a non-starter for me. All of the IBOs that approached me couldn’t show or answer the following:

    – What is your profit/loss since you started?
    – If you are at a loss now because you just started? Do you have the numbers or projections on what it will take before you start making money?
    – Can you show me financial statements, or at least projections?

    When I have been approached by potential clients, or other businesses looking to partner on proposals, I am asked the same questions, and are asked to provide proof not only of my business certifications, but also my financial statements and qualifications. IF I couldnt provide those, there was no way in hell anyone would team with me on anything.

    And the whole ‘owning your own business/work for yourself’ selling point? When its all stripped down, the fact of the matter is that you have a boss, and a boss on top of that…but instead of being labeled as the ‘boss,’ its your upline, and the results of not meeting goals is the same as working a 9-5 job: Your upline gets on your case regarding your ‘performance,’ and if it continues, ‘fires’ you from the organization, or simply stops supporting you.

    For these people who are saying that Amway is a family and that your upline really cares for you. I challenge you to stop accumulating PV, attending functions and prospecting people for 3 months. Then see how many times your upline will reach out to see how you are doing without bringing up getting started in the business again or touching base to keep you from dropping out of their organization.

    And regarding all the success stories you hear from people who ‘made it’ with WWDB/Amway, either at the conventions and meetings? The easiest way I can describe it is a lot of lottery winners telling everyone else to buy lottery tickets and get their friends to buy lottery tickets so that you all win the lottery together.

    My best friend has gotten into this, and he has avoided telling me anything about it, even though its painfully obvious to me that he is doing WWDB/Amway. He goes to constant meetings, and spends many weekends away at ‘work conventions.’ I respect him for it, because we both know if he approached me with it, or persisted with it, he knows it would strain our friendship, which brings up another point. When you are starting out in a new venture, unless its a competitor, wouldn’t you want your best friends to all know what you are doing? Why does it have to be such a secret? Why would you want to keep your friends and family in the dark about why you are suddenly spending all your time in coffee shops, leaving dressed up several times a week for ‘meetings,’ and providing vague excuses anytime someone asks you what you are doing?

    Based on what I have witnessed through my friend’s involvement, if you REALLY wanted to get into WWDB/Amway, I personally would just buy enough product to keep my upline happy and maintain access to the marketing materials, but initially skip out on the whole recruiting/prospecting aspect completely, and start building your motivational materials and sales pitch via various social media platforms, and really hype up your ‘personal success with the system.’ Make the materials catchy and utilize the resources that WWDB provides to really make that material shine. Once you have done that, then start selling those materials to others who are already involved in the business, independent of your upline, and start charging for personal seminars where you give people more ‘tools to succeed.’ This is where I feel the money is made with WWDB, by utilizing the system the way the top dogs do. This should be somewhat easy to do because you have so many WWDB resources at your disposal, and essentially dont need any solid proof or numbers to do it.

    It sounds sarcastic or snarky, but I am dead serious. I really believe the money isnt made by selling the Amway products; its made by selling the Amway dream. Shady and somewhat underhanded? Sure, but again, the whole point of this is to make money, and this is the only real viable way I see people making money with Amway.

    Finally, ask yourself this question before you decide to jump on-board: Have you ever gone out of your way to buy an Amway product? Its pretty telling when none of your friends use the product and the one friend that has some is trying to get you to sell it. Is it going to be 100% commission based pay? You bet. Are you going to have to buy the “demo” products from Amway? I guarantee it. Does any retailer you know of force their “employees” to do business this same way? Nope. And that is exactly what my best friend is doing.

    In the end, no matter what I write people will still join up and take a shot at being a lottery winner with WWDB/Amway. The WWDB faithful will say ‘maybe it just isn’t for you,’ ‘you dont have what it takes,’ call me a ‘dreamkiller,’ and continue on their merry way while I continue on mine. Difference is, if you asked me to show you proof that my business makes money, I can (and will) show you the numbers and projections to back up my business, but I am almost 100% certain you can’t show me yours.

    *puts armor on* *braces for attack from ambots*

    Reply

    1. Thank you for your thoughtful message. You speak from experience, much appreciated.

       I agree with you. It is hard to convince people, they will have to learn from their mistakes.

       Reply

47. Funny how all these MLMs are trying to defend it. It is a scam, the only people making the money are the ones at the top. You won’t be beating my SWE salary.

    Reply

    1. SWE salary how much are you talking about $150K -$200K – after tax – what do you have? and hopefully you don’t leave in california with that peanuts. “the only people making the money are the ones at the top” thats absolute ignorance.

       Reply

48. 5 encounters? It is 4 to much.
    I do bussines in traditional way and with amway as well, and I have no time for celebrating meetings more than nessesary.
    One meeting is enough to find out that my interlucutor is ready to cooperate with me or not. Simple.
    If you realy do bussines – doesnt matter traditional or mlm – you wana do this as quick as possible. If you do it slowly probably you do not do bissines but rather it is your hobby 🙂 like fishing, bowling, gamming or farting in a chair 😉
    Its my opinion and doesnt matter anybody will or will not agreed with it.
    (sorry for my english – but I hope you understand main idea)

    Cześć. I do usłyszenia 🙂

    Reply

    1. 4 encounters too much. I agree with you. Tell that to the American recruiters who are vague and like to waste time until you are filled with dreams instead of facts and honesty.

       Reply

49. I wonder why we do not hear the thousands of stories where Worldwide Dream Builders has changed lives. Where honest, hard work paid off. It’s an education process to determine if the individual is willing to do the work it takes to become grow personally and become financially free. Or the many hundreds of thousands of individuals who have grown mentally, spiritually and financially. If it was easy everyone would be doing it. What all of the above comments failed to state is that no one forces you to become a part of WWDB.
    I should not be surprised at the comments above, they not only criticized Jesus they crucified him.

    One person that knows that the system works.

    Reply

50. Thank you for the blog! I was in the final stages of making a decision and I had to call my future business mentors with a “yes” or “no” to the offer. After reading your blog I had a second thought but reading the comments, I am thinking I should do this.
    I don’t think i will be able to run any other business at this budget and I feel the ROI will be huge and don’t have to worry about break even.

    Reply

    1. even if I am just investing 2-4 hours a week with my Amway business along with my corporate career – lets say I take 20 years (worst case – you can get it done in 2-5years if you are focussed) to become a diamond – 500K annual.
       20 years – lets say I become a director in a tech company making close to 250K-300K + stocks annual income.
       If I can be a diamond by then, I will still be far more better than most (or all) of my peers.
       Creating a cash flow and having a job is 2 different things, you will only realize it only if you have access to people who have done that, it just cant be taught.

       Reply

51. Thank you for your article. My wife and I were “in” WWDB for around 3 years and I have some things to add if that’s alright.

    First, everything about Amway’s pitch, or “growth plan” as they call it, was carefully crafted over the years by the leadership of the organization, specifically to weed out the sceptics from the ‘dreamers’. The first meeting, or “prospect”, involves meeting someone and seeing if they fit the organization’s criteria. On the second, or “napkin plan” they try to hook said person using basic introductory info about the program. The following ones, as you pointed out, are all about getting someone started.

    To be fair I must say that the WWDB plan can be successful; after going to the functions for three years and having worked a lot with uplines, Amway can, theoretically work. However, it involves the sacrifice of almost everything including your personality in some cases, and you have to work very, very hard at it for a long time. The teaching that Amway is easy is deceptive, and fortunately in the last “Free Enterprise Day” I went to, it seems like the leadership is trying to do away with sugar coating the work requirement of the process.

    If it were simply a matter of hard work plus basic social tactics to get people on board, I would say WWDB simply presents what any business would: an offer for success at the cost of a commitment to output. The hooking tactics could simply be considered doing what is necessary to bring in clientele. However, this is simply not the case.

    WWDB IBO’s are expected to learn to say and do things that appeal to peoples’ insecurities, frustration with the economy, and their genuine desires to want more out of life. Many people are drowning in debt and trying to keep their lives and households together, and WWDB recruiters play on all of this. They learn to use words that invoke feelings of longing like “dream”, “freedom”, and “choices” and constantly focus on discussing the business in terms of family, service to others, and marriage, all areas that most of us seek success in.

    If you attend the major functions, especially FED, you will notice an auditorium packed with excited people and not a lot of sceptics. When they do turn up, they are usually obscured by the rampant energy blazing all around them. There are no voices on-stage other than those of excitement and confidence in the organization, and the messages of all the speakers revolve around WWDB changing their lives and the freedom the organization brings them.

    Also at these functions you will notice lots of single men and many very attractive single women. WWDB draws in single people because it appeals to desires to become more confident, wealthy and therefore “marketable”, and spouses because it offers improving of the family and household. Who doesn’t want to have wads of cash and pretty ladies at their fingertips? Who doesn’t want less financial stress in the household, especially when kids are concerned? WWDB was carefully organized with people who can speak to these longings.

    I need to wrap this up, and I will be writing my own article on WWDB soon, but I want to leave with this suggestion: WWDB may not necessarily be a pyramid scheme (though they do spend lots of time trying to debunk this!), but it is a misleading opportunity, carefully constructed with just the right kinds of people and with specific tactics to lure people in. If you are simply trying to make your own income, there are better ways to do this. In WWDB you will work very hard for a long time with no promise of success, especially if you don’t commit to it 100%, 365 Days of the year. Even missing a week of work will put you on ground zero; imagine losing 200 lbs over 2 years only to gain back most of it after a week of relaxing.

    I also want to say this: Christians who are actual Christians won’t tailor their gospel to fit a business scheme. You will hear most of the leaders talk about God and getting to bless others, but they will follow it up with teachings that encourage building the business, as well as sometimes fanatical talk about money and ‘things’. It’s all rhetoric and out of all of WWDB’s flaws, this one is the one that finally convinced me that the organization isn’t all it’s cracked up to be.

    Thank you for your article! Maybe one day will be able to read one of your books 🙂

    -Jay

    Reply

52. You are such a clown lol

    Reply

53. hey I’m trying to figure something out.
    I understand essentially how the combined self+downstream PV places you in the bonus chart which then gives you a percentage of kickback of the self+downstream BV.

    I understand that your downliner’s bonuses are subtracted from your bonus.

    However, let’s say you are in the top bracket getting 25%, but each of your downliners have done really good too and are also each in the 25% bracket — all their bonuses add up to exactly the same as yours, leaving you none..

    Is there another bracketing system that leaves you some bonus, or do you have to essentially start over adding some fresh new immediate downliners who will be in lower brackets so you can get more of their bonus?

    Thanks!

    Reply

54. lallouslab,

    I really enjoyed your article and the open interchange in the comments. I just read them all, well I might have skimmed one or two comments.

    I think another fascinating aspect of this topic is the math aspect. Very few people actually delve into the math of it!

    Some say that the system does work for some people, and of that I have no doubt, but how does it work? It only works for some *because* it slowly and miserably fails for most!

    For example, you cannot make a living just selling the product. At the %35 markup on direct sales, there are not enough hours in a day to make a good living that way. And besides, working 9-5 every day selling products to consumers is what losers do, so that’s not the answer.

    So you need some downliners. How many? That’s a good question. Each downliner needs your mentorship. You can’t have a hundred successful immediate downliners because, again, there’s not enough time in the day to mentor them, and remember, you’ll be mentoring them not only on business, but life in general, even their marriages. Trying to mentor a hundred people would be way more than a loser’s 9-5 job. (And just think of the work it takes to keep your own marriage on track. Try to do that for a hundred people besides! ha ha!)

    So you need a small number of downliners. Let’s say 12 downliners. You can meet on average with each one once or twice a month, plus have a few days for yourself, and to attend meetings. Granted, some won’t need that much attention. Others will need more. Sometimes you have to help a downliner’s downliner. Sometimes you loose a downliner and need to find another.

    But, that still won’t cut it because those 12 downliners only have so many hours in a day so they simply cannot move enough direct sales in order to get you enough PV or BV to get you in a higher bonus bracket — so again, you’ll still not be making enough to make ends meet, and you won’t have time for a 9-5 job.

    The answer is you need several layers going at an increase of about 10 downliner for each downliner, all together several hundred people.

    So back to the claim that it works for some people – yes, it works for one person by having several hundred people below him for whom it is not working.

    I feel very sad for the person who says it’s working for him, but then calls a 9-5’er a loser because the very reason it is working for that one person is because there are several hundred 9-5 losers who are working there respective behinds off and pouring their 9-5 job money into the system — that is where the money comes from!

    You cannot get rich by buying stuff from yourself. You cannot have a group of people getting more money back then they spend on products. The money has to come from somewhere — it has to come from outside the system to inside the system, and it comes from all the people on the fringe of this fractal who are working 9-5 jobs and struggling.

    OK so let’s look at an instantaneous snapshot of a section of this fractal tree: We have 1 successful person, and let’s just say 6 people each making $400/mo, 36 people making $50/mo, and 216 people not making any profit yet. That’s one person for who the system works, and it’s only working because there’s still 258 people working their full time jobs!

    And yet, that one successful person, when he’s trying to get another downliner, says “Do you know the difference between us? You have to go to work tomorrow. I don’t.” And that is a terrible thing to say when his success is *because* there are several hundred other people going to work tomorrow.

    And yet, all of those 259 people were told the same thing “You can gain financial independence. You can fire you boss. You can get a huge boat.” For most of them, it was a lie. That’s why I’m about to say it’s a scam:

    Now, you might say “Well, all businesses require investment and hard work. This is no different.”

    The problem is the chances of success are extremely low with MLM. Do you tell people they will have to give up everything and work for several years, and they still have only a quarter of a percent of a chance of getting it to work? No, you don’t tell them that. You appeal to their emotions till they stop thinking.

    Let me explain how I know that there’s such a high failure rate:

    Let’s say there was not a high failure rate, and let’s say a given mentor was able to gain new layers of downliners at the rate of one layer every 6 months. Okay? 6 immediate downliners after sex months. Then after a year, each of those have downliners. and so on.

    In just five and a half years, you’d have about 435 million downliners. That is more than the entire population of the united states!

    So I ask you this: With Amway, having been founded almost 50 years ago and with the huge number of people who have been working it for such a long time, — if even 25% of people who tried it succeeded — we would have already reached some level of saturation!

    But why haven’t we? And this is the answer: Because the system is carefully engineered so that it does not work for 99.75% of people, but it’s engineered in such a way that by not working for them, it works for 0.25% of people.

    So for those for whom it works, it does so because of the engineered try-and-fail process where you have hundreds of people under a false promise of wealth toiling away pouring their lives into it with engineered odds of ultimate failure.

    It is clear that it cannot grow smoothly for very long without running out of people. And it cannot just exist as a fixed size business in that if your end of line downliners don’t ever get downliners they will give up and leave after realizing they are just losing money, which will expose a new set of new end downliners which will realize they are losing money and leave — so it has to be growing OR IT WILL BE SHRINKING.

    To a certain degree, a constant turnover rate in the end of line layers can sort of keep it going but because they are changing over, they never get more downliners so their next up mentors will not be making money either, so they will get out, then you loose also whatever downliners they may have been recruiting.

    So you really cannot maintain a given size of downstream network — it must be growing (at a rate which would take over the world soon) or it WILL BE SHRINKING.

    And this is why I say it is a scam – it is vary carefully engineered to be just on the fringe of successful but not too successful — just to the point where a fraction of a percent will make good money, like the winner of the lottery, to tempt the others, but it is also engineered that most will fail but only after a slow financial death where they pour their own money into the system.

    And besides, if it did work for everyone, then pretty soon there’d be nobody to grow foods, build cars, roads, or houses, (or your beloved mega dollar boats!), and get this, there’d be nobody to work in the Amway factories making all those amazing products that amwayers always are giving to their friends and family since nobody wants to buy them!

    It’s like a society voting themselves free money from the government. It works great a little bit but as more people get on the band wagon and there’s less people actually producing a product, pretty soon it gets top heavy and the whole thing tips over.

    So am I saying it doesn’t work? I’m not saying that at all. For a fraction of a percent, it works great. But, it does so, *because* at any given moment it is NOT working for over 99%. And for most of them, it never will, and that is a vital feature that is engineered into the system.

    And I call as scam this design feature of engineered failure for over 99% of hopefulls who are all promised untold wealth and light work hours.

    You might say that it’s not a designed aspect. But it obviously has to be. If the success rate was less, it’d be total failure. If the success rate was MORE, it’d still be total failure!

    And when it’s been proven that this is how it plays out and they keep it this way, then you have to admit that this failure rate is part of the design and is fully intended.

    *it is a lottery.*

    And this explains why they don’t even want to tell prospects that it’s amway until they’ve got them so dreamy-eyed that their powers of logic have shut down!

    Now, about the ones for whom it does work: Does it really?
    I agree some people probably have made a whole lot of money from it. But are they really living the dream of retirement? or are they busy working their tails off going to meetings, coaching, mentoring?

    I suspect that even they cannot just kick back and relax while the money flows in. I suspect they might as well have a full time job, only they don’t get weekends off with Scamway.

    One IBO who was giving me the pitch one Sunday said “The difference between us is that tomorrow you have to go to work. I don’t.”
    But guess what, after a certain amount of time, he suddenly had to go – didn’t have time to talk any more — why? Because he said he needed to meet a potential downliner. On Sunday afternoon. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, he had to go work his business on Sunday afternoon, right after telling me that he didn’t have to go to work on Monday.

    And do you know why? Because the loser he was trying to catch probably works during the week, and so Saturdays and Sundays will be always busy for you meeting with those losers who work during the week — and provide that golden cash flow that makes the system work.

    And since we’re on the topic of math, if we just examine the often touted model of 6 downliners each with 6 downliners, you’ll be making around $55,000 per year – not bad, but you still may need a part time job. But what is the cost to others? It means you have over 40 people below you, alltogether spending about a quarter of a million dollars every year just so you can get a measly $55k!

    And if you have one more layer than that, there’s 257 people below you spending 1.4 million dollars. Yet another layer beyond that, you have over 1500 people spending over 8 million dollars every year!
    (And this is just counting the products they are required to buy each month from amway to qualify for bonuses. It doesn’t even begin to cover the hundreds or thousands they spent on promotional materials, gas costs, or rally/event fees.)

    So yeah, if you are really good at conning people and don’t mind the fact that thousands of people are pouring their lives down the drain with a 0.03% chance of making a dime all just so amway can be rich and you can get a pinch of it, then yeah you can be successful. But I don’t think you’ll have any early retirement because you have to always keep starting new downline trees because old ones collapse, etc.

    And is it a pyramid scheme? Of course Scamway advocates will tell you that the FTC ruled they are not a pyramid or whatever.

    But look at the FTC’s page on identifying a pyramid:

    https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/blog/2014/05/telltale-signs-pyramid-scheme

    They specifically mention the factor of your income being mainly based on the number of downline recruits rather than direct sales to the public (i.e. NON MEMBERS.)

    However we have seen clearly that you cannot make a living just selling the product – the ONLY way to have any level of success is to get several layers of downliners.

    They also specifically mention being required to purchase things you don’t want or need — and yet there is a minimum level of purchases of amway products to qualify for any bonus at all — which is why endliners and near-endliners are always buying stuff and giving it away to their friends and family.

    And the real payment? where does that come from? It comes from a percentage of a percentage on a non-linear scale of the purchasing of the downliners.

    At the end of the day, regardless of any bizarre technicalities, it *is* for all practical purposes, a pyramid scam.

    Reply

    1. Hi friend,

       Thanks for your comment. It is really detailed and perhaps useful for those who are open to logic.

       Do you mind if I use it (after editing) in a new related blog post?

       Thanks

       Reply

       1. lallouslab,

          You are most welcome to use any/all of my post anyway you like, no need for credit.
          A few notes though: When I said “sex months” I meant “six months” so you might double check that.
          Also, the math I used was, while very meaningful, was also very simplistic because their math is more complex and I didn’t feel like writing a full simulator so I wrote a simple iterative adder which added up the increasing powers based on the minimum BV (Business Volume) of $450/mo for each member.

          (It’s just a ~15 line perl script.)

          I mention that because somebody who’s a math whiz advocate for amway would tell you my math was not exactly accurate — but even if it’s not accurate to the cent it is still very meaningful for the dollars. Remember, amway is about making dollars for a few, not sense for anybody.

          Also, I frequently used the term “loser” when referring to people who work for a living because that’s how amway operatives refer to them and I wanted to show the disgusting reality that it is those “losers” who allow amway to work.

          For the record, I work with my own hands (Even if I don’t know which is which apparently) and have the highest respect for people who earn a living by contributing a real product or service rather than just scamming, conning, and skimming those who do work for a living.

          I have never been involved with amway but I have had friends and relatives who have been involved (Who hasn’t?) and naturally I wanted to understand the phenomena so last time someone gave me the pitch I perked up and learned everything I could.

          If you have a way for me to get you a file I can send you the Business Overview that explains the math in a glowing way.

          Funny thing is it has these little disclaimers at the bottoms of most pages that say things like “The average monthly Gross Income for “active” IBOs was USD $207.” Wow so when you average out all the people making their millions, the average was still only $207 per IBO? Obviously if some are making millions but the average is $207, (Which I’m sure gets entirely spent on devotional materials and event entrance fees..) many many were making much less than $207, probably even losing money.

          Then there’s all this fine print, that says things like 0.7263% reach Founders Platinum, 0.0061% reach Founders Ruby, and 0.0089% reach Founders Diamond.

          So even their own numbers show that success isn’t for everybody. Only a few win. Everybody else loses.

          Here’s the script: (Hopefully the forum software doesn’t strip/mangle it LOL..)

          #!/usr/bin/perl
          $bv_thislayer=0; #business volume this layer
          $bv_sum=0; #business volume of this and all parent layers.
          $l=1; #layer number
          $s=0; #sum of downliners current and parent layers
          while($l<12)
          {
          $w=6**$l; #width of this layer in downliners (Think of it as a pyramid)
          $s=$s+$w;
          $bv_thislayer=$w*450; #450 is MONTHLY minimum business volume (i.e. amway purchases)
          $bv_sum=$bv_sum+$bv_thislayer;
          print "layer $l: width=$w (Sum=$s) — (\$$bv_thislayer/\$$bv_sum)\n";
          $l++;
          }

          I'm sure you could write a much better script that more accurately calculated everything, including the 35% kickback they get on their direct sales (of $150/mo), and how their downliners take away points from upliners, and all that.

          I'd be glad also to direct email you or telecon if there is any way I can be of help when you write your new post. I really want to help people from getting scammed.

          In addition to the Business Overview PDF that lays out the math, I also have a 1 hour 17 minute audio pitch by Greg Duncan, and he seems to be saying good college education is no longer helpful, all you need to make good money and have financial stability is to have ambition.

          I hadn't actually listened to this recording till just now when I'm writing this post.. This guy is crazy. He says in the old days, factories created the wealth. But now, cell phones and computers (he says!!) are factories so we all have our own factories so we can create our own wealth.

          See it's total nonsense but people still fall for it.

          Wow, listening to this audio recording is amazing. The audience cheers and claps at the mention of any well known amway promoter or idea. Reminds me of how the crowd cheered hitler. This really is a cult.

          Anyway, let me know if there's any help I can offer!

          Oh, and I'd be delighted if you sent me a note when you publish other amway related articles.

    2. Great calculations, thank you! These are the numbers Amway won’t give you and this is WHY they won’t give them to you!

       Reply

55. Here is the real truth :

    People who have tried and failed to build an amway business are in the same boat as people who have signed up for a gym membership BUT have not gone into the gym daily!

    Realistically if you have any success with this business you have to do it daily ! No diff than working out !

    Many people get excited and come to the positive meetings BUT DO NOT DO THE DAILY HABITS of what it takes to build this.

    Plan to spend 2-5 years consistantly building this business DAILY and you will have success.

    I have a traditional business and it took A LOT of hard work owning 2 mercedes (paid with cash) a motor home (paid with cash with 15k upgrades cash ) and 2 homes with no mortgage on them. I worked for years and years long hours to accomplish that! Plus I have 5 kids and a wife who likes nice things who didnt have to work outside the home due to my trad. Biz. So do I know what it takes to succeed… YES Does it take long term vision and CONSISTANT DAILY habits/work ethic… YES!

    With Amway, I started part-time and found some people who joined my team and yes I did get a bunch of people who rejected the offer to join but after putting in some consistant work like I did with my traditional business my team started to grow even without me doing anything (passive income! ) You need to expect a bunch of people to say no but it’s a numbers game and u will find the right people to join your team.

    What the average person doesn’t realize is that if you are an employee and you join you can get some amazing tax advantges by having a home based business usually between 2000-4000 extra on your return. Its not a tax shelter but the gov. Set up taxes this way to encourage people to start their own business.

    Anyway, this is not a team / business for everyone it is designed for people who want to live a non 9-5 life. If you have above average goals then this is for you… of not all the best to you but the products and the team has been amazing to me. There are many amway teams with around 5 million people involved, I just happened to find a good one that explained the business plan to me properly… granted I am a business owner so sometimes non business owners need to see it 3-5 times before it “clicks” Sincerly I do hope that you have a great life in or out of Amway!

    Genuinely,

    Joseph
    Sent from my iphone so sorry for any typing mistakes

    Reply

    1. I will grant you that in any business, whether it’s mowing lawns or swindling people, it does pay off to make daily habits of working tirelessly at it.

       Whether a bank robber, India windows support scammer, or amway — yeah hard work and daily habits most definitely help.

       This of course doesn’t even address the ethical aspect.

       The real truth is that for each of the few people making a living on Amway, there are a thousand beneath them pouring their lives into amway and losing their shirt, and over 99% of them will eventually give up before reaching success.

       The real truth is that this his delayed failure rate is carefully engineered into the math of the system which is why it works. If it was designed that most people succeeded, then entire world would be doing it now and there wouldn’t be any actual people building *real* value by making/growing products.

       If it was any harder then nobody would try (at least not enough for the system to work for a few) and it’d fail.

       So the real truth is that it’s carefully engineered to pray on the human mind just like gambling and casinos do so that massive revenue will be raked in by a few swindlers while millions of people are pouring out their lives like water and most of them will fail.

       When you recruit people do you tell them that they have a 0.025% chance of success, and almost certainly will be a miserable failure? do you tell them that this statistic is engineered in carefully for the success of others, and not themselves?

       No, you don’t. You tell them that they too can be wealthy and independent in a few years. Even the casinos tell you what your odds are! but do you tell new recruits they are almost certain to fail? Of course you don’t. You get them all dreamy eyed with things from your dream board. You tell them about your car and your boat and your house and get them all dreamy eyed when you well know that for 99.75 of them it’s a bold faced lie. You pick up a picture of an amazing car and say “This wakes me up in the morning.”

       And this is the real truth, and this is why it’s a scam.

       Can it work? Of course it can. So does bank robbery, slavery, the windows support scam, identity theft fraud, and the other millions of scams that ruin lives every day.

       But I dare you to insist that you and your downliners all sternly inform each new recruit right up front that they have over a 99% chance of failing after several years of pouring money into it.

       Just see how quickly things go sour when you stop lying to people.

       Reply

       1. Do gyms tell people that most likely you are going to stay fat when they sign people up? 😊

       2. Joseph, what logic is that?!

          What Anon is saying and what you are giving as a counter example does not apply 🙂

          That speaks volumes about your reasoning capabilities…

       3. Joseph,

          Gyms say if you burn so many calories you’ll burn that many calories, take it or leave it.

          Gyms provide things like tread mills, weights, pools, etc — there’s no deception at the heart of the system.
          People know what they are getting and that’s what they get.

          Swindling thousands of people to work hard so you don’t have to work at all now that is an entirely different business model.

56. Joseph,

    Wow.. The more I think about your gym example the more sad I am for your mental short circuit. Does Amway do this to you?

    The gym makes no claim of a certain caloric reduction if you pay the dues. They essentially rent equipment and space, provide hot showers, and frankly a lot of the people I know go to the gym to hang out with their friends while swimming in the pools.

    But your mental disconnect demonstrates why people fall for gambling and Amway. Thinking goes out the door and dreaming takes over…

    And that is how it works — millions of people chasing and selling dreams — and absolutely refusing to do the math.

    And you really have no problem telling people they can be wealthy and independent and work a few hours a week when you know that 99.75% of them are going to be working constantly for several years before giving up?

    A matter of fact, everyone who’s thinking of joining Amway should instead go join the Gym. Really. Dues are no worse, and there’s no delusion about where you’re going. If you get tired of running and running and never getting anywhere, you can simply step off the treadmill and go take a shower. With Amway, you have to keep running, keep running, and 99.75% of you will never go anywhere. And if you step off, you’re called a loser and negative and so on.

    At the Gym, you can step off the treadmill and you still have all your old friends!

    Personally, I find I get enough exercise typing idiotic replies to idiotic posts on forums HA HA.

    Reply

    1. Dude if you have a goal to get abbs you keep working at it even when your tired and you work hard to get the things you want. I’m sorry your post is idiotic and your a quitter. Just reading your negativity is exhausting.

       Reply

57. This exactly thing happen to me. Would you be able to tell me their names because we agree to meet up soon

    Reply

58. Dude I know so many people who are successful and retired from is, it’s ridiculous!! If Amway was so bad Microsoft and Apple would not be partnered with them. Your blog is full of bullshit just saying

    Reply

59. Alice,

    That’s funny that you should so certainly know so many amway success stories.
    Even in their own literature the fine print says “The average monthly Gross Income for “active” IBOs was USD $207.” and “0.7263% reach Founders Platinum, 0.0061% reach Founders Ruby, and 0.0089% reach Founders Diamond.”

    Sure a fraction of a fraction of a percent are raking in money — but only at the expense of hundreds of thousands of suckers who are pouring their day-job money into scamway trying to make a go at it.

    With an average monthly income of $207, which does not include the costs of buying promo materials, expenses of going to rallies, etc., you certainly cannot be successful or retire.

    When over 99% of people pour their life blood into the system only to drop out when they figure out its a scam, and less than one out of a hundred actually making any real money at it, I’m truly amazed that you know such a ridiculous number of people who are successful and retired from scamway.

    Just remember, for every living wage that scamway provides, there are a hundred downliners pouring their life blood into the system under the delusion that they will one day be rich — when in fact even amway fine print says over 99% of them will fail miserably.

    Not saying it doesn’t work for a fraction of a percent of contestants, but so does bank robbery, gambling, and good old fashioned train robbery.

    But that doesn’t mean it’s something that can work for any significant percentage of people, nor does it mean that it’s an honorable form of employment that helps society and economy instead of hurting it.

    But, like the confidence men of ages past, it’s a con con here and a con con there it’s a con here and a con there me i ee eye owe.. (to the tune of old McDonald had a farm.)

    So sad to see how people prey upon eachother to scam them, cheat them, and wring them for all their worth. But welcome to the real world.

    And when you have a person who has no trouble lying to hundreds of victim downliners to build a pyramid, please don’t tell me that evil doesn’t exist.

    (I dare you: when you’re trying to sign up a downliner, tell them the truth — that 99% of them will fail miserably after dumping great expense into the system. That’s backed up by official amway literature but you won’t tell them because you want to scam them.)

    Reply

    1. Your full of bull shit.. and yes I actually do tell them that it takes extreamly hard work and most people don’t succeed unless you work really hard at it.. but you wouldn’t know that because you really don’t know much about world wide.

       Reply

60. Alice,

    Mathematically speaking, for you to be making a living wage with amway, there are over a hundred downliners losing tons of money. And statistically speaking, over 99% of them will ultimately fail. This is designed into the system. It’s just like the casinos do. The house always wins, on average.

    If the system actually worked for a significant percentage of IBOs, the whole world would have been taken over by now. But it only works for a small percentage by slowly failing for over 99%. This is engineered into the system.

    A successful parasite feeds aggressively from its host so as to reap maximum benefit but not so aggressively as to kill the host. However, a successful parasite often feeds so aggressively that the host is weekend which reduces its ability to combat the parasite.

    And this is how amway works – new IBOs are soaked for all they are worth such that it puts them in a financial strain so they feel like they have no choice but to keep trying — but not enough of a strain to actually break them — thus the flow of money keeps on coming.

    And yet when you recruit new IBOs, you tell them that they can make it big, work a few hours a week, and retire at 20 years old. You don’t tell them that 99% of them will fail, and that it’s engineered into the system. You don’t tell them that the average income is $207/mo.

    Instead, you tell them a glowing falsehood.

    Does it bother you at all that for your living wage there are over a hundred people slaving away under a lie?

    Just answer that one question please. Does that bother you at all?

    Reply

    1. You guys please.. have you actually ever been in world wide? Or do you people just read about it in blogs and hear people wine about it? Because here is the deal if you have good mentorship and actually do the habits you make way more then 200$ a month. Second I make more money then the person that sponsored me.. if it’s such a scam I wouldn’t be able to do that.. SO no it doesn’t bother me because people can make more then there upline. And those so-called “success stories” you people talk about are people I actually know and hang out with.

       Reply

61. Alice,
    And how many downliners do you have who are not making “way more than $200?”

    If your really making decent money at this and you’re an honest honorable person, please explain to me how many downliners you have and how much they are making roughly. I want to see how the math plays out.

    And your logic is completely bankrupt: The fact (even if it’s true) that you are making good money at it does not mean it’s not a scam. All the best scams make good money for the few successful scammers.

    Same goes for bank robbers and card sharks. There are people who make billions at it. It’s still a scam though.

    And so full of lies.

    One IBO bragged one Sunday saying “The difference between you and me is tomorrow you have to go to work. I don’t.” Well, he had to cut our visit short and do you know why? He had to go meet a prospective downliner! on Sunday! What’s this BS? bragging he doesn’t have to work on Monday, then he has to work on Sunday? And yes, Virginia, if you have to do it to keep money coming, it’s your form of employment – and if you have to do it on Sunday, it means you’re working on Sunday.

    By the way, it’s so charming to see all the derogatory names IBOs have for anyone who disagrees with them — Quitter, Negative, Looser..

    Speaking of which, you can’t really call me a quitter since I never started. I did the math first. All I can say is do the math! do the math!

    Reply

    1. First of all if you really did the math you would know I make 0 absolutely zip from sponsoring someone the only time I make money is when my down line makes money. Here is the math if I help my down line make 1,000$ I get 200$ when they make 2,000$ I get 400$ And so on and so forth. Are you really calling Mary Kay and beach body scams? Cause they actually get money from sponsoring someone. And when they say “retire” they mean from corporate world.. which means they work when they want.. which more then I can say for you.. unless you get lots of money from being negative all day and which in that case your life really sucks. And I don’t need to tell you how much I make. That’s my business not yours.

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62. Alice,
    The fact is I really want to understand how amway works. I’ve read all I can find online, I’ve talked at length to potential sponsoring IBOs, I’ve carefully examined the official Amway “Business Overview” document which explains how the math works. I even watched a Greg Duncan video. Do you notice how the crowd cheers just like the Germans did when Hitler was giving a speech?

    But you seem to be indicating that I don’t understand it.

    Fair enough — but on the same token, then why won’t you explain how it works in the real world? Obviously I and a lot of other people don’t know what you know, so why not share it with us?

    Please explain how many first, second, third, fourth and etc., downliners you have and roughly about how much each class of downliner is making and roughly how much you are making.

    It doesn’t have to be exact numbers and I don’t need to know anybody’s names I just want to see how the math works out, how the money moves, and where it comes from.

    So why not provide this helpful info? Unless of course you aren’t making a dime and haven’t got more than a couple downliners.

    You mentioned that the people you hang out with are making a lot of money at it – but knowing the amway method, those people are probably your uplines, and do you know that the main key to gain downliners is to pretend to be rich because nobody’s going to believe a poor sponsor – so sponsors have to act rich even if they are going deep into debt to do it in order to attract downline partners.

    So how do you know your uplines are actually making so much money? And if you asked to see actual proof, they’d just tell you it was none of your business just like you tell us about your amazing success!

    And what’s with this BS about retirement being working when you want? Seriously? What a word game! So isn’t it funny, all these IBOs, working full time at their independent business, including every day of the week, no weekends off, at all hours of the day (because, after all, they need to meet losers who have day jobs after work to try and sponsor them) — and they call it “retirement?”

    Absurd. Absolutely absurd. Full time work is not retirement. Grow up people! Retirement is when you don’t have to do any work. If you have to keep working to keep eating, sorry, that’s work.

    Next thing you’re going to say that all the engineers, teachers, and doctors who love their jobs are also working full time and retired because they are working when they want to work because they want to work full time. Word games. Total word games.

    And what about the millions of sole proprietors out there? Like window washers, landscapers, attorneys, real estate agents — millions of people who run their own one man or one woman business, they enjoy what they do, they work when they want because they are their own boss, but they are probably working full time or near full time — are you going to say they are RETIRED because they are not working for the corporate world?

    Total mind games and lies. Sorry to be so blunt but that’s just the plain truth.

    And point in case – the IBO that was telling me all about it — had to cut our meeting short because he had to go talk to a prospective downliner — ON A SUNDAY EVENING! — (all the while boasting that he didn’t have to go to work on Monday..) — and why did he have to go meet this potential downliner? To keep building his business in order to hopefully get some money flowing in!

    Seriously, if you have to go do a business task (independent or otherwise) on a Sunday evening in order to keep money coming in so you can eat, you are *NOT* retired…! There’s no two ways about it. Stop lying to people and telling them they can retire at 20 when in fact they are still working full time in their “independent business” in order to keep money coming in… or in hopes that money will come in..

    So obviously you know way more about it then I do, why not show us how it’s working for you?

    It may be none of my business, but if you really do know something that can help me understand it, then it would be in your better interest to show me how it really works because my current understanding of it is that it is a scam of wordgames and lies and I will continue to warn everyone I can that amway is scamway because I really believe that is the truth.

    So please, tell us how your success is working out for you and your downliners.
    Unless, of course, you haven’t any of either.

    I suspect that you aren’t making any money with amway and haven’t got more then one or two downliners (who also aren’t making any money) and that your upliners aren’t making nearly what they say either and that if you were to ask for proof they’d say that it was none of your business, just like you say to us.

    Reply

    1. ANON, will you so kindly share with us a copy of your w-2 from last year as well as any other additional income sources? Feel free to hide any personal ssn, addresses, etc. It is only fair if we are to take your advice to know what your financial credentials are, unless, of course, you have something to hide.

       Reply

63. If you want to hear more about the horror stories and even get concrete data and breakdowns about MLMs, check out reddit at r/antiMLM

    Reply

64. Justwondering, if this forum was about my form of employment, and if I was promoting my form of employment as a great way to make lots of money while hardly working, then I’d be totally glad to share the information you request.

    However, as it is, how much I make or what kind of job I work if I in fact even work a job is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand — and we’re discussing whether amway is a scam or not.

    Alice and others are claiming that you can work hard for a few years then retire and work a few hours a week and be wealthy — that is the amway claim — and it is an entirely valid question for me to ask for a better explanation of that *regardless* of what work I do if any at all. What I do has nothing to do with Alice’s claims.

    I’m fascinated by the fact that you tried to divert the discussion to my W-2 when I’m not involved with amway while we’re in the middle of a discussion on amway — the fact that you did that is very telling — you really do know how hopelessly scammy amway is and you just don’t want anybody to talk about it.

    I will tell you that I am not and never have been involved with amway or any multilevel marketing scheme or other pyramid scheme. My finances are irrelevant to this discussion. When I’m promoting my form of income then by all means ask the tough questions about it. But this is about amway and I’m not doing amway.

    I have, however, been targeted as a potential downliner, and have talked at length with experienced IBOs and read the Business Plan, and I’m quite certain that it’s a scam because it’s engineered to fail for over 99% of IBOs but only after they pour their life’s earnings into the system for several years before giving up. It doesn’t create wealth, it squanders and steals wealth, enriching just a few of the top parasites. But most of the money that moves goes directly to amway corp.

    It’s just real funny how many pro-amway folks chime in here to say how great it is but they themselves aren’t making a dime.

    But it’s all part of the scheme – convince people it works so they’ll sign up under you in order to make it work for you..

    It’s a con here and a con there and a con con here con con there.

    Reply

    1. ANON IS A HYPOCRITE!

       If you have nothing to hide, please share it with us? Are you scared/embarrassed to share?!? Lol! If you seriously think your personal financial credentials have nothing to do with the validity of your criticism, you are simply arrogant. Get a life!

       Reply

       1. Justwondernig + Whaaaaa, thank you so much for your demonstration of what an amway operative does when confronted with the ugly truth.

          Often times your “attack the messenger” approach is harder to spot but you have given clear examples of it.

          If I happend to be involved in some business relating to amway then you would be quite excused to ask about that — but as it is, I’m not involved with amway in any way.

          If a child sees someone getting robbed, or a leading law professor sees someone getting robbed it doesn’t matter — they still saw someone getting robbed.

          Likewise, when I see someone swindling thousands of people, it doesn’t matter if I’m a teenager working at McDonalds or a multiple phd financial advisor — a swindling is a swindling!

          And amyway, even in their own publications, clearly shows in their fine print that most people fail. They also give the math of how much kickback is received by each position in the pyramid. And I can see that it’s engineered such that for every living wage amway provides, there are thousands of poor losers pouring their corporate income money into amway.

          Anyway, thank you very much for providing such a typical amway response in the ad hominem style!

          And, if you think my math is wrong, just look at the Business Overview document that you hand out.

          And furthermore, since we are talking about amway and the question of where the money comes from, why don’t you tell us about how many downliners you have at each level and how much roughly they are each making?

          It is you who is afraid of the truth. I could turn out to be a financial tycoon or a school kid, but my argument is just the same.

          But your insight on how many downliners you have in each level and how much they are making — now that would be very relevant to our discussion!

          Unless you’re afraid of what you’ll find out.

    2. Dude I don’t care what you think. I don’t really care if you don’t understand it. Lol I have better things to do then answer your questions.. and btw when you build this.. you really can retire and not have to work at all if you choose to.. and btw the people I know are not just upline but also cross line.. and I know they make really good money because of the cars they drive, how much they travel, the places they shop, the places they live and at the same time not have a corporate job and at the same time out there kids through private school… please I don’t need to see there paycheck to know how much they make.. it’s the life style they live

       Reply

       1. Alice, don’t worry about ANON. My theory is he got picked on a lot as a kid and to compensate now has spent years of his life posting thousands of disparaging other people across many different websites. HE HAS NO LIFE!

       2. Alice,
          Too bad you don’t care to explain it to me, because without knowing whatever it is you know, I’ll have to go on warning people about amway.

          The problem with your claims of success is that even according to amway’s own numbers, the average active IBO makes a measly $207 per month, and less then one percent reach even Founders Platinum levels.

          While a few succeed, they do so at the expense of thousands of others that are failing and this is engineered into the business model.

          If even half of people who tried succeeded, the entire population of the world would be caught up in it in a few years and obviously that wouldn’t work because you still need other “losers” out there working corporate jobs actually making the products.

          If you actually look at your downliners, you’ll see that most of them are slaving away pouring money into it while dreaming at their dream board on their fridge every morning.

          The problem with expecting to be able to retire and (mostly) stop working but keep the income rolling in is that you need to keep adding and growing downliner branches. If you just relax and stop adding new downliners, some of your downliner trees will collapse then another one will and so on and so forth. The system is engineered so that downliner trees die off almost as fast as they grow in order to keep from reaching workforce saturation in just a few years.

          The fact is, if you simply added a direct downliner every 6 months..and each of your downliners did the same and so on and so forth, In just five and a half years, you’d have about 435 million downliners. That is more than the entire population of the united states!

          So you cannot tell me that anybody can do it. The system is carefully engineered to have a failure rate almost equal to the growth rate. This allows a small percentage to prey on hundreds of thousands of people who are pouring their money and lives into a false dream.

          That qualifies it as a scam in my book.

       3. ANON, Don’t you have anything better to do?!?

          Do you realize literally every critique you’ve given of the Amway business is a critique of literally every single mlm out there? Why target Amway? Why not start a website criticizing mlm in general if that is your opinion?

          This entire blog was started in response to an experience where we try to inform new members before joining of any potential expectations and expenses and THEY CAN VOLUNTARILY DECIDE if they see enough value or they don’t-no hard feelings either way. That is a much better approach than other mlm I’m familiar with.

          I will again reiterate the obvious fact you are blind to. You’re entitled to your opinion, but I’m also entitled to my belief that if I’m going to tak advice from someone about a business opportunity, I’d like to know their credentials. You haven’t even shared what you do for a living. My guess is you are worried if you did share this, you’d be revealed to not be doing much of significance with your life, hence why you post countless lengthy blog responses to a business you’ve allegedly never even been involved with.(did you start Amway and fail?!? Maybe this is where the vitriol comes from? You can’t succeed yourself so let’s drag everyone else down!)

       4. Justwondering:

          This entire blog was started in response to an experience where we try to inform new members before joining of any potential expectations and expenses and THEY CAN VOLUNTARILY DECIDE if they see enough value or they don’t-no hard feelings either way. That is a much better approach than other mlm I’m familiar with.

          I disagree with that. You don’t inform members and you are not straightforward. This has been demonstrated not just by my experience, but by many others.
          If you were really “informing new members”, this blog post would have not existed. Instead, you dragged me for 5 meetings until you spilled the bean. The basic “bait and switch” technique.

       5. Lallooz, it’s too bad someone wasted your time! You clearly have better things to do with your time, like you latest blog past which I have included a link here:

          http://lallouslab.net/2018/09/21/where-do-fries-come-from/

    3. Here’s ANON THE CON!!! The girl so tough she goes by the name ANONymous!!!

       http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9kRd9899jGg/UJNsL6T8mEI/AAAAAAAAAB0/fJX3gxifdVA/s1600/Internet+Warrior.jpg

       Reply

65. Justwondering,
    I am aware that amway is not the only pyramid scheme out there — there are hundreds if not thousands.
    However, this particular discussion is specifically about amway — and amway is the one I’ve had the most exposure to with me as a target, so I’m talking about amway here.

    But actually I like your idea of starting a MLM awareness and education website. I’ve designed websites in the past and run content delivery servers, so this is entirely within my scope of abilities. I could have video testimonials from the people that failed, I could have articles, and so on. I could have subsections for each major MLM, and people searching google would find a lot of great information which would all be geared towards educating people of the dangers of MLM. There is no shortage of content that would really shine on such a website.
    Thank you for the idea!

    And thank you for adding data to the horrors of an encounter with an Amway/WWDB recruiter! Several of your statements show the dishonest tactics used by recruiters!

    It’s one thing when a blogger blogs about people acting a certain way, and it’s an entirely more juicy piece of evidence when people then show up and begin acting that same way in the comments!

    For example, you say that recruits can voluntarily decide if they see enough value. But, think about it. You don’t tell them that 99% of them will fail miserably. (And that’s amways own numbers.)

    You don’t tell them that the system only works because 99% of them will fail and that it’s engineered that way. And recruiters often don’t even tell their targets that it’s amway until several meetings into the scamming process! They call it a great business opportunity and many other things. They often tell them that it’s not a pyramid scheme. They tell them they can retire early and work a few hours a week, which for 99% of them, is just a lie.

    So how can they make a voluntary decision if they don’t even know the relevant facts? They simply cannot! And that is what makes it a scam!

    Another dishonest thing you said was to imply that you were taking business advice from me, hence your need to know my credentials.

    I assure you, you are not even close to taking business advice from me! I could turn out to be a billionaire aircraft manufacturer president with multiple business and law degrees and it wouldn’t make a smidgen of difference — you still wouldn’t admit that amway was a scam.

    A scam is a scam, and I’m using Amway’s own numbers to prove my point. No amount of qualifications or lack of them on my part lend or detract any weight from the fact that Amways own numbers prove that it’s an engineered scam.

    However, the one sad advantage I have is that I passed gradeschool math. That allows me to work the math provided in amways own documents and to see that it’s a scam.

    So by continually harping on my alleged lack of qualifications, you make my job so much easier because it is plain for all to see that you want to talk about anything but the real question at hand.

    In specific answer to your question about whether I started in amway, the answer is no. People have tried to recruit me, and at first naturally I was interested but then I figured out how it worked and that it was a scam.

    If I had rotten moral fabric, I’d definitely join. I think I could do really well at it.
    You gotta work hard, and learn to pick the right kind of people who are more likely to stick with it. You need to train them to train all subsequent downliners how to pick the right kind of people. In my case, with my video editing background, I would probably also make training/promotional materials to help my downliners learn the psychology of picking and training the correct kind of targets.

    And, as you may have figured out by now, I don’t easily give up.

    I really think I could do well at it, but I know I would be scamming thousands of people, and I am not willing to do that, even for good money.

    As to your constant harping on my alleged lack of credentials, you just parade your own blindness. It doesn’t matter if I’m a 5 year old sucking his thumb or a 55 year old business tycoon — 3+3 is still 6.

    All I’m asking for is the numbers.

    If you’re really doing well at amway, then I just want to see the numbers. My experience or credentials (as long as I can do math) doesn’t matter.

    Your (and others) constant refusal to provide the numbers proves that you aren’t doing well at it and don’t understand the math that’s supposed to be making you rich. And that’s how the system works – you are a victim too.

    And here’s how I know that you are not doing well at it:

    IBO’s are rather busy. They are often meeting with potential partners (i.e. downliners/targets.) They don’t have time to go posting on random forums.

    If you’re doing well, then you wouldn’t be here talking about this. You’d be meeting new partners, hanging out with old partners, and raking in the dough and stuff like this would be completely below the radar.

    And I’m very glad you are here talking about this, because it gives me more information on the topic — it allows me to see first hand how the system fails.

    So why are you here? Because you are struggling to get enough downliners. Too many of them google it, and read anti-amway stuff, and it is hindering your “business” and so, even though you obviously don’t enjoy being here having this discussion, you do it in a desperate attempt to curb the anti-amway content on the internet.

    As for me, I love helping people — honest people, that is. I help people with their cars, plumbing, construction projects, computer programming projects, circuit board design projects, etc. And I enjoy helping people by giving them the tools they need to not get caught by many of the scams out there.

    I’m certainly not trying to drag anyone down, and if amway was not a predatory scheme, I wouldn’t bother it. But it is dishonest and predatory. IBO’s literally go to coffee shops and prey on people who are short on money, like a lion waits by the river for a gazelle to come for a drink of cold water in the morning.

    If you’re really keen on credentials, let me quote a source you should respect:
    One of the lies recruiters often tell their targets is that it’s not a pyramid scam.
    But please read this post by the Federal Trade Comission (FTC):
    https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/blog/2014/05/telltale-signs-pyramid-scheme
    It says pyramid schemes are ILLEGAL.
    Amway uses products to try to skirt around the technicality of the law, but if it weren’t for the fact that many senators are involved in amway, it would be considered illegal and shut down.

    The FTC says that the tell-tail signs of illegal pyramid scams include:
    ~~~
    Your income is based mainly on the number of people you recruit, and the money those new recruits pay to join the company — not on the sales of products to consumers
    ~~
    You’re forced to buy other things you don’t want or need just to stay in good standing with the company
    ~~~

    Notice it says …”Not on the sales of products to consumers” — you clearly cannot make much income selling products to consumers. Your big bucks comes from downliners. Most successful IBOs hardly sell any at all.

    As a matter of fact, in 2014 the FTC actually won a court case against another MLM and shut them down:

    https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2014/05/ftc-settlement-bans-pyramid-scheme-operators-multi-level

    The bright side is, when Amway gets shut down, you may get a little bit of your lost money back.

    While amway may currently be allowed to operate, the are just barely allowed. They are essentially an illegal pyramid scam, but due to technicalities are allowed to operate, but at some point, someone’s going to bring a lawsuit and it’s going to go to the federal court of appeals and the seated judges aren’t going to accept the technicalities and *wham* it’ll be all over.

    Actually, that website you suggested I start could also help organize people who have been scammed by amway in order to launch a class action.

    Anyway, please continue to post here. In no way do I want to discourage you from posting here. I know our discussion is helping countless other amway targets steer clear, and I really appreciate the opportunity to gain more insight from the interaction with a failing amway IBO.

    All the best!

    Reply

    1. Dude where’s your brain? If it’s such a sceme then Microsoft wouldn’t have a contract with it or Apple I’m pretty sure they have legal teams and they would know if it’s a sceme and would choose to not be apart of it. Losers find one person who failed and one excuse to not do something.. a winner finds one that succeeds and one reason to do something.

       Reply

       1. Alice,
          I myself often wonder where my brain is, so it’s funny you should ask! Did you see which way it went? I’d like it back if you can find it.

          In any case, your reasoning is severely flawed when you essentially claim that Microsoft and Apple would not partner with amway if amway was a scam.

          Nothing could be further from the truth. Large corporations like that care nothing of whether people are being scammed. All they care is if they sell more products. And amway, in requiring members to spend at least $450 each month on products whether they need them or not, provides an amazing captive customer base — so Apple and Microsoft sell more products. That is the bottom line.

          That doesn’t in any way mean that the end users aren’t being scammed by deceptive recruiting techniques or by being sucked into a pyramid scheme.

          And your jargon about a loser finding one person who failed? More lies. I’m not saying you don’t believe them, but somebody told them to you and they are lies, because you’re implying that if someone fails its their own fault and that people have a good chance of success.

          The truth is that the system is engineered so that 99% fail after pouring tons of money into it. If there was even a 50% success rate, you’d have a million downliners and half the world would be just making money off of others without actually producing any actual service or product.

          But the reality is that the failure rate is engineered to be over 99% so that it doesn’t reach market saturation. It’s the ideal parasite: If it were more successful, the whole world would become infected in short order, and the system would implode because everybody would be making money off of everybody else and nobody would be producing real goods or services.
          On the other hand, if it were less successful, people wouldn’t try for long enough, and fewer people would try, and it would implode.

          Don’t you see that because no actual services or products are made by IBOs that it can’t work for everyone? If everyone did it, there wouldn’t be anyone making those wonderful amway products or building homes or growing food and everyone would starve to death.

          It’s clearly a parasitical predatory practice that only works because a few people are getting tricking money out of other people who are working their butts off while losing their trousers.

          Amway depends 100% on people who work *real* jobs, make real products and provide real services — and yet IBO recruiters shame those very people calling them losers, and tell them things like “You’ll have a job all your life” as if that’s a bad thing — when in fact it is vital for the success of amway!

          I realize you can’t agree with me because you are trying to make a go of it, can you see how I come by my conclusions reasonably? Do you really think everybody could be making money off everybody else with nobody actually making real products or performing real services? Really?

    2. I feel bad for You, your going to have a job for the rest of your life. Or get rich off your negativity either way it sucks for you.

       Reply

       1. So you’re telling me it sucks to have a job for the rest of my life? Why? It sure beats swindling others all my life. And besides, if it’s a job I enjoy, then it’s really absurd to say that it sucks!

          Many people find great fulfillment in their job because they are producing real products or services and helping people.

          But thank you so much for posting the above post because it makes it so easy for me to point out the absolute absurdity of your reasoning — or the total lack of reasoning, as the case may be!

          Just re-read what you wrote! You wrote that it sucks to have a job the rest of your life.

          Do not you not even realize that the money you make from amway COMES from people who have jobs?

          The people making the products have jobs.
          And the people signing up at the bottom edge of the pyramid all have jobs.

          It is the money coming in from people with jobs that keeps amway alive!

          Without non-amway money coming into the amway system, it would implode faster than you could blink your faster eye!

          But you’re not alone in this amazing dillusion – scorning those who have real jobs is a common tactic taken by amway recruiters.

          Thanks for making my task so easy!

    3. ANONymous, you literally didn’t answer a single question of mine. So much for a discussion…it’s like you’re literally talking to yourself.

       P.S. I met with a potential “downliner” today and they can’t wait to get started!! Thanks for the motivation!

       Reply

       1. Justwondering: You didn’t answer a single of my questions either, and mine just happened to be relevant to the discussion about amway.

          Your questions to me were entirely unrelated to amway. But if it makes your job any easier, for the sake of argument, just pretend I’m a 17 year old who dropped out of kindergarten at a prime age and works at a two bit burger joint sweeping the bathrooms. Let’s say I make 40 cents an hour, and I’m dirt (ha ha) poor, and I have no degrees.

          See? What has my experience or credentials or financial status have to do with Amway?

          Or I could say I was a multiple PhD financial advisor — you’d demand to see copies of my diplomas then you still wouldn’t care what I said. So let’s go with the 14 year old.

          Clearly, your hangup on my credentials is pure attack-the-messenger technique – which thank you for demonstrating, is a prime amway IBO technique.

          The fact still is the same — even if I’m an ignorant 14 year old — amway still — according to their own numbers — has a 99% failure rate. For each successful IBO, there are hundreds or thousands of people working their butt off losing their trousers, pouring their hard earned real job money into amway — and 99% of them WILL FAIL and it’s engineered into the system that they will fail.

          And then IBOs have the ferocious audacity to shame people who have real jobs!

          Now since you’re so keen on the importance of answering questions, maybe you could lead by example here — when you talked with your potential downliner, did you tell them that according to published amway figures, they had a 99% chance of failure? No, you didn’t, did you. Of course not. Nobody is going to take a gamble when they have a 99 to 1 odds against them. well not very many people.

          Did you tell them that they’d be scamming thousands of people?

          And, since you’re so keen on answering questions, I would totally love to see a breakdown of your downline pyramid’s income — how many levels below you, how many “partners” on each level and roughly how much money is earned by each level below you and by you.

          But this I know – you won’t provide that info, and neither will Alice or any others – and why is that? The answer is very simple: Because you only have a few struggling downliners and neither you nor them have got the dough rolling in yet.

          If you did, you wouldn’t be bothering posting on forums. You’d be out recruiting more downliners because the forums don’t matter!

          At least you could make up that information so I could verify that you at least understand amway math — which I suspect you don’t understand.

          But you chase constantly after the dream, staring gently at your dream board every morning, and diligently try to put on a good face and pretend that the system actually works in hopes more downliners will fill up the pyramid below you so it can work for you.

          (For those of you who don’t know, the dream board is a bulletin board or often the kitchen fridge where you put pictures of fast cars, expensive boats, or whatever you wish you had. It’s called your dream board, and it is to remind you what you’re working towards, because they know you’re going to have to work a very long time before you see a single shiny zinc penny, and if you give up and stop dumping money into the system, it will fail — so it is key to keep the victims dreaming.)

          Dream on, sailor!

       2. ANON THE CON! This is what you shall be called.

          Perhaps your definition of failure is misguided. Could it be that IBOs all have different goals, motivations, and reasons they are involved with Amway?

          Some are involved strictly because they want Amways incredible products at wholesale prices. They may not be generating a profit, but they are involved as a glorified customer. This is not failure!

          Some are involved have no intention of doing the work to reach the high levels and are just wanting to make a little extra money and enjoy the social interaction being a part of an organization brings. An ibo with no one on their team, but has, let’s say, 10 retail customers, can make a some extra money. This is a very reasonable level for anyone to reach and certainly produces enough income to fund any expenses they may have for their business and put some extra in their pocket. They may want to go further than this in their business and their upline would love to help them do this too. News flash: when a downline makes a smaller amount, so does the upline!

          You obviously consider both these scenarios to be complete and absolute failure. You are not taking into consideration that everyone has a different goal for starting Amway and stays involved for different reasons. If it truly was so bad, they could walk away at any time. This hasn’t happened and my business and Amway as a whole continue to grow!

          See ya ANON THE CON! Do you get paid to write all th we blog posts? I hope you do! We wouldn’t want you putting time and effort into something where you don’t make any money now. If you want to make some money with your time, you could take a lot less time and find some customers in our business and make more for your than posting silly blog posts! Hahahahaa

66. Justwondering,

    It’s so nice of you to call me a con! It so easily demonstrates how you attack the messenger when you can’t handle the message! You make my task so easy!

    It would have been even nicer if you’d actually pointed out how I had conned someone or how I was advocating the conning of anybody. Problem is, I ain’t.

    In answer to your question, no, I do not get paid to post here. I get sufficient reward in helping innocent people stay safe from getting conned by amway recruiters.

    Now, it is important to remember here that I and many others here have pointed out numerous forms of conning that are standard operating practice among amway recruiters.

    For example the promises of early retirement, when by retirement they simply mean working your backside off in a pyramid scam instead of for a regular employer.

    Then there’s the bait and switch that’s been mentioned previously.

    Then there’s the fact that amway is engineered carefully to harvest maximum profits from victims without giving them a fighting chance of success, on average!

    Remember, amway’s own numbers say that most people will never achieve any level of financial independence.

    And in fact, it is not even possible for most people who join amway to reach financial independence — because if they did, the whole system would collapse but you don’t know that because you’re worse at math than I am, which is pretty bad!

    And spare us the dribble about the great products. Everyone I’ve known who was in MLM did it for the glowing promises of money and financial independence. And that is what the recruiters talk about, and you know it.

    Are you even aware that as an IBO you are creating no real service or product?
    You’re skimming skimmers who are also skimming skimmers. Amway is a financial parasite!

    By the way, you will be pleased to know that I have taken your advice on one point and started a website to educate people on the dangers of MLM.

    Reply

    1. PS: Click my nickname to see my new website. It’s dedicated to Alice, you, and batman.

       Reply

       1. What is that Clip Art?!? Please pleeeease keep that going! It’s a joke!

          http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com

       2. ANON THE CON, no smart aleck responses today?!? We’re you stuck at work?!?

    2. Thanks ANON THE CON for starting a website about all mlms! Despite your thick skull, you listened to one thing I said! This is a much fairer critique since every critique you’ve mentioned isn’t really of Amway, but all mlms. Have fun pouring late nights and hours into a worthless cause!

       You’ve never once heard me speak about this business and yet you’re claiming to know how I present the business and regard the products. Are you going to willingly admit you don’t have a clue how I present those two topics?

       Fo what it’s worth, the products are world class products. If someone doesn’t like them, there is a 180 day guarantee. It’s easy to promote a quality product like what Amway has—you can’t debate the quality.

       I notice you cleverly ignored the clear numbers I gave showing 99% of people do not fail!

       Have a good day ANON THE CON! I’m loving this convo. I hope it keeps going on because every time you talk you sound like a crooked politician, changing the subject with generic and dishonesst LIES!!!

       Reply

       1. Justwondering,

          Your immature behavior really shines brightly these days, but I’m not complaining because the less intelligent you behave the easier things are for me.

          As to your suggestion that I’m somehow wrong for posting anonymously, I would like to point out that all of us here (except perhaps the forum owner) are posting anonymously. My handle here is every bit as useful as everyone else’s.

          As to your question about today, you see I’m an independent forum dweller (IFD) and unlike an IBO, I can take Sunday off if I want to. As a matter of fact, I can take off any day from posting on forums that I like, as often as I like and for as long as I like. I guess in amway terms you could say I’m retired because I am posting on forums when I feel like it. And in fact, I could stop posting on forums all together and I wouldn’t lose a dime — unlike your form of retirement where if you stop working it you starve.

          You mention that I’ve never once heard you speak about how you do the amway business — which begs the question why? How come nobody here promoting amway will actually tell us how it’s going for them? Oh, yeah, I bet it isn’t going too well just yet…. That financial independence is illusive, isn’t it?

          Regarding your question, I actually have a very strong clue as to how you try to cheat your downliners, even if I’ve never heard you speak to them.

          I’ve seen what you do here — you call names, hurl insults, and use many other common scamway tactics to try to shift the topic away from the actual mathematics of amway — and I consider that a very strong clue — I have no doubt whatsoever that you use all manner of dishonest techniques when recruiting “partners.” (victims.)

          As to the 99% failure rate, I have right here an official WWDB document titled “Business Overview, January 2018” and its statistics seem to be based on their 2016 review.

          It clearly says that in 2016 the average monthly gross income for active IBOs was $207.

          Take a deep breath and burp the binky out of your biter and try to tell me that $207 is financial independence.

          Now granted math is not your strong point, but that $207 right there proves that most people fail to get anywhere near financial independence.

          If the average is $207, some will be more and some will be less — in fact, many are losing money.

          And with some making hundreds of thousands, how can the average be so low? Simple: For every successful person, there are thousands losing their shirt.

          If even 10% of IBOs reached financial independence the monthly average would be up near $2000.

          This same document also plainly says that only 0.7263% of active IBOs reached Founders Platinum level. And only 0.0061% reached Founders Ruby, and only 0.0089% reached Founders Diamond.

          And here’s one more proof that the vast majority of IBOs fail: Less than a third of a percent of americans are IBOs. That’s about one out of three hundred!

          And here’s why that’s significant: The fact is, if even 10% of IBOs reached financial independence, a metric boatload of people would be doing it, and after 50 years, amway would pretty much have taken over the world.

          You may not know about exponential growth, but it’s like this. Let’s say you add on another layer of downliners every 6 months. At first you just have 6 immediate downliners. But after 6 months, they each have 6 downliners. And so on and so forth. In just a few years, you would have more downliners than there are people in the united states!

          And amyway, which has been in business for what, 50 years? Even a slow exponential growth for 50 years would include the entire world population many times over.

          And yet still only about one in 300 Americans are IBOs. After 50 years? The answer is simple: Failure is almost 99% guaranteed.

          That’s why the growth is hardly any faster than the failure rate.

          And that’s how I know without any doubt, that 99% fail to reach the promised financial independence and residual income.

          When amyway has been running for 50 years and only one out of 300 Americans is an IBO, you know there’s a high failure rate — very close to 100%.

          Besides, if the success rate was higher, pretty soon half the population would quit their real jobs and just try to make money off other people and pretty soon there wouldn’t be enough people to make cars and grow food and the whole thing would collapse.

          As to the quality of the products, all I know is that I’ve been in a lot of people’s homes over the last couple of decades and the only times I see amway products is because someone’s relative is involved with amway and they are always buying their $450 worth of goods and giving them away to friends/family to comply with amway minimum purchasing requirements.

          And that brings up another point – what’s with the minimum purchasing requirement? Why not let people purchase just what they or their customers need? If the products are so great and the system works, it’ll grow all by itself! Fact is, the only way to get the bulk of people to buy the products is to force them to do so in order to keep enriching corporate amway.

          Ahh, and that brings up another interesting point: You guys often shame anyone working for the corporate world… all the while you are working so hard to enrich the very large and very corporate amway company.

          Do you know that they benefit the most from all your hard work?

          Hey, if you have the sufficient understanding of how amyway works, I would be really grateful if you could explain, in your own words, where the money comes from. Does it come primarily to retail sales to non members? or does it primarily come from Apple and Microsoft? Or does it primarily come from entry level IBOs who are still working their corporate job and pouring their earnings into amway?

          I would say it comes from the latter — entry level IBOs who are still working their corporate jobs, pouring their money into amway. My reasoning is that the money has to come into the system – you can’t have a closed system gaining money without money coming in from outside.

          But I would love to hear your explanation of where the money comes from.

       2. PS: And seeing how the failure rate is so high, it’s absolutely a lie to tell potential downliners that they have a fighting chance at financial independence.
          And that’s why it’s a scam.

       3. ANON THE CON, get the wax out of your ears and actually listen to what I’m saying. Did you read the message I posted stating how every person involved in the business has different goals? What you think Amway is is a system that guarantees financial independence for anyone who signs up. Nothing could be further from the truth. Everyone starts with a different goals and a different willingness to commit to that goal. Always recent ad campaign talks about making “A Little Extra.” There are many involved who their goals and work habits line up with that goal. I know you want to make it seem like 100% of all people who start are sold out and committed to becoming financially independent with a Amway, but that is simply not true. Many are involved to make a little extra money with some retail sales or perhaps involved to be a part of a positive atmosphere that promotes self improvement.

          PS hows the website coming?? Was that clip art copyrighted?

67. Justwondering,

    I did notice how you had redefined the word “success” to include all forms of failure.

    But it’s just word games — every bit as deceptive as redefining “retirement” to include working 7 days a week as an IBO.

    Saying people can just make a little extra is also a scam — the amount of time and effort it makes to make a little extra by selling product to non-members makes it very hard to do while working a full time job. And there are simply not enough hours in a day to make a living wage (much less financial independence) by full time direct selling amway products.

    And just imagine if you had your 12 downliners and all they were doing was selling products to the public but not seeking more downliners. You’d get rather annoyed because your empire would not be growing and you would be applying for jobs at the grocery store. You’d want your downliners to get downliners and so on in order to get some actual cash moving your way.

    While a fraction of a percentage of IBOs may just be in it for the culture (But really? all those meetings paroting the same cultish stuff over and over?) or maybe a few like the products — 99% of them do have a goal of financial independence, early retirement, and visiting the beaches of the world.

    I’ve seen the dream boards. I’ve heard the selling of dreams. I’ve seen the video of the flashy cars and fancy houses. Big dreams. Really big dreams.

    The fact is, more than 99% get into it for the false promise of wealth untold and financial independence and over 99% of them fail miserably.

    Website is coming along great, I got some videos added and some links to court cases where Amway was found guilty of pyramid scam activities and ordered to pay millions out in the settlement.

    Got any other ideas for my website? Maybe a little music and poetry (all about scamway of course!)

    You still have not answered my question of where the money comes from or what would happen if 50% of recruits reached financial independence.

    The problem is the money comes from the bottom level IBOs who are working their corporate jobs, and most of the money they pour into amway goes to corporate amway anyway, only a small percentage of it even goes to IBOs.

    It’s definitely a pyramid scam!

    Why won’t you answer my questions? where does the money come from? what would happen if 50% of IBOs were to find the success of financial independence?

    You’re the one championing the importance of answering questions, now pony up and throw me some answers!

    Reply

    1. Wrong. It wouldn’t take that much time to service a few customers to make a little extra.

       By your own admission, you’ve never been involved so you wouldn’t know how much time it takes to service customers or what % of people are seriously committed to a goal of financial independence vs just making some extra money.

       Reply

       1. You remind me of the guy who’s going to smoke a stick of dynamite. He’s got one end in his mouth and he’s about to light up the other end. His friend said “Don’t do that!” Do you know what the fellow says? “Don’t knock it till you’ve tried it.”

          I don’t need to try everything to know how it works. that’s why we have math and science.

          So since you aren’t too sharp on math, here’s the math:

          Simply selling to the pays what, 35%? so to even make $2000 a month, which could be a very low living wage, you’d have to move about $5700 in merchandise every month.. That is hundreds or thousands of items! you have to be selling every single day! The number of items you have to order up is mind boggling! If you work full time selling, you might be able to make a miserable living wage. Nothing like financial independence. And there are much better sales jobs if you just love selling stuff.

          But with walmart, amazon, and ebay, people can get just about whatever they want at the lowest price. It’s extremely difficult to compete against them on a purely marketing basis.

          I also don’t need to have been involved in amway in order to know that their own numbers, which I have pointed out before, clearly state that less than one percent reach financial independence and that the average income of active IBOs was only $207 per month!

          And by the way, why won’t you answer my questions? Where does the money come from? What happens if even 50% of IBOs were reaching financial independence?

          You so strongly advocated the importance of answering questions, now you yourself won’t! And the questions you were asking weren’t even related to amway — but my questions are very related to amway and you won’t answer a single one!

          In answer to your question about why I’m discussing amway here — well for one, it’s the most prevalent pyramid scam in my area. It’s the one I’m usually targeted by. Secondly, this specific forum is designated for the discussion of amway.

          While many of my problems with amway as a scam also apply to other MLM scams, that by no means detracts from the fact that amway is king of pyramid scams!

          And to think I even made a website because you wanted me to. Maybe I only listed to one thing you said but at least I did listen to one!

          What have you done?

          Seriously, the math is clear. Amways own numbers are super clear: Most IBOs fail to reach even a living wage, much less financial independence.

          However, the opening line is always “Retire at 20, enjoy the beaches of the world” and the speakers at meetings and conventions or whatever you call them show flashy videos and pictures of their cars, homes, and watches.
          They encourage you to put up pictures of expensive things on your fridge/dreamboard as well.

          The math is clear. The cultish behavior you are clearly demonstrating.

          By the way, I added another video to my site (Which you can see by clicking my Anon handle and then clicking Videos) and I got better clip art too. Check it out!

          Please answer one of my questions! Why not? Afraid of the answer? Or don’t know it? Ask your sponsor, they care about you, they can help you answer. Oh wait, no they only are nice if it helps them get money.

          But for old times sake, why not answer one of my questions?

    2. What I seriously don’t get is why you single out Amway when every one of your critiques(which we will have to agree to disagree) applies to every mlm out there.

       Reply

       1. You still haven’t answered my question, nor have you explained how the math is working out in your specific case.

          Why? The only answer can be that you don’t understand the math, and you haven’t got even close to a living wage, much less financial independence from being an IBO.

          But I would like to take a moment to thank you for writing, it gives me a much better understanding of how the mind works in those who are propagating this scam. It helps me think through the issue and formulate better responses.

       2. hey Justwondering,

          I added a section to my website: http://mlmscams.info/Lies%20and%20their%20answers/index.html

          I find that there are many lies told my Amway IBOs over and over so rather than answering each post where I spot them, I put the major ones in a list so I can provide a nice list of responses to common lies.

          I also got some good videos that might help you: http://mlmscams.info/Videos/index.html

68. dmb and everybody,

    One interesting theme I’ve noticed among the comments of IBOs is that Amway is a multi-billion company with no debts and so it’s not possible for it to be a scam.

    This of course is a bait and switch situation.

    The key to solve this dilemma is to realize that amway corp is one thing, and the IBOs are another.

    Amway corporate just sells products, enforces pyramid rules, and pays out bonuses.

    They don’t directly cheat anybody. The scamming is done by IBOs.

    And this is key to the success of the system as a parasite. The big corporate entity ties to operate just inside the boundaries of the law, more or less.
    The IBOs, on the other hand, operate far outside of the lawn as they scam people, but they are too numerous for the law to catch up with, and even though a few get taken down by the legal system, the rest don’t.

    As to Amway corporate being successful — you betcha — they have millions of victims sending them money!! That’s all it takes to be successful.

    But let’s look at whether Amway is to be blamed for IBO’s widespread deceptive tactics. Even though amway has rules that prohibit deceptive tactics, they have built a system that sponsors deceptive tactics.

    Let’s say you built a 100 foot tall slide in a public playground in the local city park.

    Are the kids going to see it and climb it and slide it? OF COURSE they are. Why? Because you’ve created a very enticing opportunity and it is above the mental capabilities of the intended audience to determine that it’s not safe.

    So when a kid climbs up there, slides down and hits the ground at 40 miles an hour and breaks his legs, who’s fault is it?

    You can’t claim innocence in a case like this if you built that slide knowing it would be temping to the kids and knowing that they probably wouldn’t have the physics understanding to know that it was dangerous.

    It’s the same thing with the Amway corporate — they have built an alluring contraption — and most people do not have the mathematical prowess to realise they are just going to get hurt.

    And the funny part is, most of the money made actually goes to amway corporate. They only trickle back a tiny bit to IBOs to keep them interested.

    So yes, Amway has created an environment that sponsors a predatory scammery.

    At the end of the day, IBOs are not creating product or value or wealth – they are skimming off people who are skimming off people who ultimately are skimming off “losers” with real jobs who are being told glowing lies of wealth untold and the worlds beaches all the while they secretly have a 99%+ failure rate and that’s engineered into the system.

    Reply

69. Justwondering,

    I see that you haven’t had a chance to respond to my questions in a couple days – did you get stuck at work for two days?

    I was thinking about something you said, something rather misguided.

    You said some things which implied that because I had not personally been involved in perpetrating amway “business” that I could not possibly understand what was really going on.

    But think about it for a moment. Really think about it:

    If you witnessed a train robbery, a mugging, or a bank robbery, and you were to write on a forum that you believed muggings, bank robberies or train robberies were a bad thing, how would you respond if a professional train robber, bank robber, or mugger chimed in on the forum and told you that since you yourself had never been involved in robbing trains, banks, or mugging people, that you really had no business telling people that it was not an honest business to be in?

    It’s just the same. Even though I’ve never attempted to scam anyone via amway, I can still do basic math and I still know how people tend to respond to grand false promises, I can still accurately determine that it’s a scam and that 99% of IBOs fail to even get close to anything on their dream board. In fact, they even fail to reach anything close to a miserable living wage.

    And yet the dreams that are brazenly sold by IBOs and at conventions involve vacationing the beaches of the world, driving flashy sports cars and living it grand mansions. And that is what people are putting on their dream boards.

    I assure you, 99% of people are never going to reach their dreams. And most won’t even reach a living wage – it is not possible for most to reach a living wage while the average monthly income is $207.

    ~~~

    You also hyped up the possibility of just direct selling to non members as a form of income. But I just read most of the amway rules of conduct, and they don’t even allow you to sell their products in mass on a website! If they allowed that, then you could set up a system that allowed you to move enough merchandise with minimal effort so you could actually make a living selling. Assuming you could actually get non members to buy the products.

    But they don’t even allow that! They want selling to be labor intensive and they want you to get more downlines, not sell products. Because ultimately, the real profit for them is having millions of captive customers forced to buy their awfully expensive products every month in order to qualify. Because that is the only way most people can be convinced to buy the products.

    Reply

    1. Reading your article it looks to me that the flaw was the recruiter promising to tell you about how the business works the first meeting. The first meeting was the only time you were not given any info. The 2nd time you met up with her (3rd encounter)she told you the name of the business and gave you some info. The next encounter/meeting you attended you were given a packet of info that told you how the business works step by step. Then the last meeting you were given the monthly and initial costs. The first meeting was the only time you were not given info and if she promised to give u info the first meeting then thats the only bad part I see. You were not strung along w/o info nor did you have to pay any money to get more info (minus your commute). You were not asked to sign up w/o having enough info (at least you didn’t state that). After the “meeting” you were asked if you wanted more info and you said yes and another meeting was scheduled to give you more info. You arrived at the meeting saying you dnot have any info about it and you wasted time. (At this point you were already given the steps on how to do the business, you were already made aware that there were monthly costs, and you already new what the name if the business was.) The only thing that was shady was being told you would receive info the first meeting if she said she would tell you info the first meeting. Besides that there wasn’t anything that was misleading. You may not have understood the info you were given but you were given info at each meeting besides your first meeting.
       I think your article was informative and honest thank you for sharing.

       Reply

       1. also before she met up with you she said it would take a while to explain it to you.

70. Erika, you mention that “she said it would take a while to explain it to you.”

    That is part of the lie they use to lead people on.

    I can explain it in a few minutes to anyone who passed first grade math:

    It’s simple. It’s a pyramid scam carefully engineered such that 99.5% of people who try it fail after dumping tons of money in. The fraction of a percent who succeed are getting a little bit of that money, and Amway Corp gets the rest.

    All you gotta do is swindle people into becoming your downliners and get them to do the same thing.

    Of course recruiters can’t just say it the way it is — hence the deception — because most people would just run away if they knew what it was at first. The whole tactic of stringing them out is to give them time to begin to fall in love with the dream of being rich before they even know what they are getting into.

    Once their emotions begin to kick in then their reasoning has gone out the window and that’s when you have a fraction of a percentage of a chance of recruiting someone but it takes stringing them along for a few meetings to give them some time to fall in love with the idea of being rich.. which sadly, they never will be..

    And please don’t take offense at me saying it’s a scam that fails for 99.5% of people. Go look up amway’s own numbers. They are very sad. And look at the fact that Amway has been going for almost 60 years — longer than you or I have been alive — and still less than one in 300 Americans are involved in it.

    If scamway even had a little but of success for IBOs and the number of IBOs doubled every year there would be more people *in* amway then out of it.

    But it isn’t, and there aren’t. It’s a scam, a sham, and a shame.

    Fortunately, only one out of 300 Americans are stupid enough to fall for it.

    Frankly, that’s the truth.

    Reply

    1. I understand your view on network marketing. Many people have that view and there is nothing wrong with that view. But as far as your encounters go there wasn’t deception. She said it would take a while to explain it. That is not a lie it did take a while and after seeing the business plan you were still confused. (I’m in no way trying to talk down to you but I am trying to point out the fact that after receiving the plan step by step you still didn’t get it. Which validates the comment she made that itcwoykd take a while to explain)
       How can someone be swindled into being a downline unless they were forced to sign something without getting any info or reading what they are signing? The statistics for the percentage of people who are successful at it is written on the info packet you were given. Still no deception. She told you it was amway the second time you met up with her and you did not run the other direction you continued to meet up out of your free will. After attending the meeting and seeing the step guide about recruiting people you could have run the other direction but you said you wanted to learn more. And then you willing met up again. You may have a poor view on networking marketing like many people do and thats fine but you were not deceived you willingly continued to meet up with this person because you wanted to learn more and each time you were given info. There was no deception at least in your written description of what occurred.

       Reply

       1. Sorry to responding to Frankly Speaking as if he were the writer of the article.

71. Erika,

    It may take someone a while to understand the full nuances of the math behind the business plan, but it doesn’t take long at all to tell them (In the first meeting!!!) “This is amway. You get a percentage of the money made by your downliners, as do they theirs. Ultimately the money is coming from losers who are still working full time day jobs and pouring money into the program.”

    It also doesn’t take more then a few seconds to tell recruits that the average monthly income is only a couple hundred bucks — and the millionaires are included in that average so it means a lot of people are losing money as well.

    It also doesn’t take long to tell them that they have over a 99% chance of failure.

    In fact, recruiters say things like “Vacation the beaches of the world. Be your own boss. Live in the home you want. Fire your boss.”

    It is totally touted as having good chances of success. But 99.5% failure rate is not a good chance of success, which is why recruiters don’t tell that on the first meeting either.

    The fact is, if there was a good level of success, the whole world would be signed up for amway. But here’s the rub: All the money coming into amway is coming from normal people working real jobs! If even a third of the population signed up for amway and became successful and quit their jobs the whole thing would topple — because you can’t make money by selling to yourself! There has to be money comming in from outside of the system. So the system *cannot* work for everybody who tries no matter how hard they work or how carefully they follow the rules for proven success.

    It’s like playing the lottery. I don’t care how hard you play or how many tickets you buy – an individual may increase their chances by buying more tickets, but on average, 99.99% of contestants lose out. The math is simply in favor of the house.

    And that’s how amway is. The math is strongly in favor of the house. A few people might make some money, but the bulk of them lose money and most of it goes to amway corporate.

    And it doesn’t matter what kind of “proven rules of success” you follow — it is like playing the lottery really — because your success isn’t so much on what you do, or even what your first, second, or third level downliners do, but the people below them. It’s the kind of people that you quite randomly get several levels down that make you successful. And for 99.5% of people it doesn’t work out.

    And why are recruiters so hesitant to mention the name “amway” at the get go? Ahh, because it turns people off. And why does it turn people off? Because everybody has a friend or relative who tried amway and failed at some time in the past. The fact is, amway turns people off because everybody knows somebody who’s lost their shirt in it!

    At the end of the day, an IBO produces no service or product and are just skimming money from other people who are skimming money from other people who are ultimately skimming money from dreamy-eyed victims who are working their backsides off at real jobs and losing their shirts to the fake amway.

    Making money by skimming only works as long as the final victims are producing an actual service or product.

    So the deception starts from the very first second of the very first meeting when targets are told they can earn money, and the deception continues in full force for the full length of every meeting, until the target has become a swindler themselves and are victimizing others.

    Frankly, that’s the long short circuit of it.

    Reply
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    1. Good writeup! Thanks for sharing.

       Reply

73. Bottom line with all MLM’s is that those who ‘make it big’ do it by constantly recruiting! sites such as http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com http://www.pinktruth.com and others bear this truth out. Of course there are always those who have the money, patience and time to be great recruiters but there are many other business opportunities that can be and are much more profitable. A word to those who are in ‘cash strapped’ situations ie: students, those ‘just starting out’ in life with a modest job, or anyone else who want to start a business with hopes of being independently employed is you need a service or product that has reasonable to excellent need or demand, a good workable plan and a reasonable budget or a way to get funding or funding partners in some cases. A free resource is your local SBA (Small Business Administration) SBA.gov and asklesko.com by Matt Lesko can point you towards many free online resources too. Good Luck!

    Reply

    1. I have decided to say that I am severely disappointed in this blog. Instead of following with what it is supposed to be (read the slogan) it is nothing but a place to tear down others that have a different viewpoint. I am not for or against either way I was here doing research and what I am finding are fanatics on both sides of the discussion that are not here to help people but to try to convince others of their rightness based on their own opinions and not actual facts. And yes, I have a doctorate that I earned with hard work and persistence, as does everyone else that is successful in what they choose to do. It is a choice that people should be able to make from their own experience and not the ramblings of ignorant people. This so called place “To Learn, read. To understand, think. To know, write. To master, teach” is a way to cause contention and hatred toward others. If you want to write, which I have done in case of your skepticism in what I am saying, do it to uplift and not force your limited and narrow minded opinion to harm others by discouraging them I to failure.

       The only way to truly fail is not to try.

       I know this will be picked apart by people that are upset and feel guilt for being judgmental and harmful but I am not here to prove myself to anyone, I already know my worth and hope everyone will start to grow to their full potential. Get the true facts by your own experience and not the short sighted opinions of others. Exercise your own free will no matter the road you choose to travel.

       Good luck and start by helping others feel better about themselves, not by tearing them down.

       Reply

       1. Thank you for the constructive post! I wish there were more like you!

          Unfortunately, I’m sure lallous and ANON will be sure to tear you down over your post. I hope they don’t!

       2. Thank you for your comment. I respect your opinion but I disagree with you. Perhaps you are mistaking my article with the hateful ones from: http://marriedtoanambot.blogspot.com/ .

          You will see that my beef with the Amway folks is their dishonesty. Pure and simple. Read my experience and that of others and try to understand where I am coming from. Trust me, only those who have doubts will find this article. There will be others who won’t find it and do business with the dreamers.

       3. Hero, thank you so much for the kind invite. I used to be ANON but now I’m Frankly and I got a website (Click my name at the top of this post!)

          To the Professor, I’m so glad to hear you are not too keen on tearing people down. And I’m not even saying that you’re doing that here in your comments about lallouslab’s blog or anything else, but you should know that within the amway culture there is a strong tearing down of anybody who’s not with the program. They call them losers and negative people and well all sorts of things to try and shame them into throwing money into amway.

          I’m so glad to hear that you and your pals there don’t do that, but many many IBOs do do that.

          But in the end, there is no potential in amway. You’re scamming people who are scamming people who are scamming people — and the ultimate victims and the ultimate source of money is actually those very losers who still have their normal day jobs.

          If you look at amway’s own published reports, your average full potential is way below the poverty level. Way way below.

          Only a small percentage make any money at it. If even half of people made good money at it, the whole system would collapse because the system would starve out because being an amway IBO does not produce a product or service – you still need real people building homes and cars and delivering packages and *making* those *wonderful* (lol) expensive amway products!

          The whole thing is a huge huge scam to get people to buy tons and tons of merchandise to make amway corporate super rich.

          Look at the math. It’s been, what, 60 years? and still only a third of a percent of Americans have fallen for this scam? If there was success to be had, it’d be a much larger percentage after 60 years of amazing success.

          And the lie that if you work hard and follow the guidelines you can succeed? ha! even if everyone worked hard and followed the guidelines, there’s still no product or service. The actual money has to be made by people making real products or services. So no matter how hard people work at it, it’s still a guaranteed failure for over 99%.

          But, I’m so glad you took the time to jot us a note here because I know money is not your currency, time is. And while you’re vacationing the beaches of the world with your family, it’s just very touching that you took the time out to jot us a note. If I were there on that beach where you are, I’d be up on a wave or scuba diving or something.

          OK Be honest now, if the dough was rolling in, you couldn’t care less what was going on here.

          ~Frankly, that’s the truth.

          ~~~

          Nobody dast blame this man. You don’t understand: Willy was a salesman. And for a salesman, there’s no rock bottom to the life. He don’t put a bolt to a nut, he don’t tell you the law or give you medicine. He’s a man way out their in the blue riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. And then you get yourself a couple spots on your hat and your finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream boy, it comes with the territory. -Charley in Arthur Miller’s “Death of a salesman,” 1949

74. Thank you so much for this article. You are a great writer! I have just gone through the same experience and I feel like a victim. It is an awful tactic that they use.

    Reply

75. Only $112 per month to run your own business? That’s awesome. Maybe they played the long game to see if you had staying power and or was going to be a quitter. Honestly, if I were going to help somebody start something like this, I wouldn’t just take any person I met in a coffee shop. I’d vet them just like any job.

    Reply

    1. That is a good point. I never quite looked at it that way, but that makes common sense. It is obviously smarter to qualify prior to jumping into anything so all parties understand what they are getting involved in.

       Reply

       1. Actually, that’s a terrible point. Which can be evidenced by the fact that the amway operative who posted using my name is extremely dishonest but that is par for the course for amway operatives.

          The whole idea behind the amway pyramid is to trick thousands of people into pouring their hard earned money into the system while working their tails off at their day job, all the while shaming them for being poor losers who still have to work for their living.

          If Amway is so great how come I haven’t met in my life a single successful amway person who’s retired from it?! I’ve met a lot of people who have retired from a lot of things – I mean actually retired — not working anymore — and none of them had retired from amway.

          Seriously, they are all working their tails off. They say they are retired and their constant 7 days a week meetings with potential clients is not work.

          But what a load of lies! No breaks and if you quit you go bankrupt. And many of them are going bankrupt trying to look like they are living the high life.

          If you’re going to use my name, please also put the link to my website, http://mlmscams.info/ into your URL setting to help promote my anti-amway website. That way people will know you’re authentic.

          Thank you, thank you, and thank you very much.

    2. Anybody who calls it a business is a couple cards shy of a shark. Think about it. IBO. Independent Business Owner.

       A business provides a service or a product. Grows food, builds houses, fixes cars, something. Something that actually contributes to society, something that actually builds wealth.

       But what does an IBO do? it’s like what does a rabbit do? Yeah, an IBO makes more IBOs. who have to make more IBOs.

       It’s a pyramid scam for sure. It’s not a business. There is no product produced by the IBOs.

       (Now the factories that make the stuff that IBOs buy to meet their quota are definitely making products, but those workers are also loosers who are going to work all their life making other people rich. How come all those factory workers don’t quit their jobs and become IBOs?)

       So no, being an Amway IBO is not running your own business. It’s mathematically impossible for 99% of people to not lose money in the deal.

       The money has to come into the system from outside, and it must come from all the new recruits who are working a day job under false promises of retiring early, while pouring their money into the system.

       It’s not a business, and it’s not a great idea.

       Reply
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